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Welcome back to Mac Chat, everyone. It's so good to have you here. I'm Chris and this is Marty. Hi, Marty.
Hello. How are you?
I'm doing pretty good, thanks. Yeah, we've just come back at the time of this recording. We've just returned to our homes in our various states from the CSUN Assistive Technology Conference. And it was really, really great, wasn't it?
Oh, it was so much fun. We just had a blast. It was a great week and now I just feel like I can't get enough sleep to recover from csun. But hey, it's all good, you know, it's great.
Absolutely. Yeah, it sure was a lot of, lot of. A lot of input.
Definitely.
Yeah.
We call that sensory overload at times.
Yes, we do. Yes, definitely. Yeah. And it's just so great to meet with a lot of like minded people. A lot of people, obviously they love technology or they wouldn't be there. Meet all old friends, make new ones and just, it's just a great sense of community. I felt like.
Yep. It's one of my favorite things about going to CSUN is being able to bring all the people together in the same place. You know, that you know, people who are friends, people we work with, people you know, all over the place. And it's hard to get people all together since everyone's all over. So when you can, it's really a lot of fun.
It's really great. Yep, we really enjoyed it. So we did meet some Mac minded people there. We got to have some good chats and I was wondering if you'd like to start off with the new product that just came out. And my question to you and everyone else is to upgrade or not to upgrade. That is the question. With the new MacBook Air 4M4. What are your thoughts on that, Marty?
I think it's a great update. One of my favorite things that they have done is they've changed the minimum RAM to 16 gigs across the board, which is amazing. And they've also lowered the price. But also what they did with that is before they were selling multiple models. I think you could go into an Apple Store and you can get an M2 or an M3, whichever would suit your needs better. But they've eliminated those now and now they just have the M4 and they've actually made it less expensive. It starts at 999 and that would come with 256 gigs on the hard drive, 16 gigs of Ram. And the only other really new thing is the color. They have a slight bluish color. It's not like really, really stand out. It's kind of more of a sort of light blue. But other than that it's just like the M2 and the M3, same design. They didn't really change any of body of the computer or anything like that. So hey, it's a great computer, super fast. It'll do just about anything you need. I would say. Who would want this computer? So if you're coming from intel, yeah, definitely you probably want to update, right? If you're on an M1, maybe you want to think about updating. But if you're on an M2 or M3, I don't necessarily think you need to. Especially if you've upped the hard drive and RAM to at least 16 gigs of RAM. And hard drive is kind of a personal preference. I feel like, you know, any of those computers are so powerful. If you're doing day to day stuff, you know, like browsing the web, doing email writing, documentation, you know, any of the day to day stuff that you do, watching videos, listening to music, I think that any one of those models is plenty powerful enough. You don't really, you know, need to update necessarily. Now if you're going to be doing some, maybe some rendering and you're doing more pro, you know, graphic type stuff or maybe, you know, pro video type stuff, you know, then maybe it would be something to think about upgrading, right? But I think if you're on the M2 or the M3, I think you're good. You don't necessarily need to. I mean, even if you're on an M1, you know, you still, as far as I know, can get an M1 which came with 256 and 8 gigs of RAM M1 processor. They sell it at Costco and Best buy for like 650 bucks, you know. So if you're looking for a way to get into any of the M kind of Mac notebooks and you don't have a whole lot of money, that's a really great way to go because it's still going to be far better than a lot of what's out on the market, you know, so it just depends on what your needs are and what you're doing. You know, if you're just doing regular day to day stuff, I wouldn't necessarily say you need to upgrade unless you're in that old intel family of computers. Otherwise I would say you're probably good to go. I mean, if you've got an old M1 maybe and you feel like it's starting to lag a little and you want more RAM or something like that, maybe think about updating. But I think for the most part, if you're on any of the M series and you're running 16 gigs of RAM, you're probably good. And even if you're just doing day to day stuff and you have eight gigs of ram, you're probably still good, depending on what you're doing.
Definitely, yeah. I had an M1 and my friend now has it and she loves it. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that M1. I just wanted to move up because I'm a geek. That's why I'm here. And so it works just great. I mean, the M processor is just so fantastic. And I made sure to get 16 gigs of RAM with it because I just feel like voiceover is always going to work really well with 16 gigs.
Yeah. And I still have a machine here that's got. It's a Mac mini with M1, 16 gigs of RAM and a terabyte hard drive and it still screams. There is absolutely no issue with it whatsoever. It is an amazing workhorse. And you just, you know, you can't deny how powerful these M1 processors are or any of the M processors for that matter.
Exactly. Mm.
So yeah, I think it's a great machine and you just gotta kind of decide for yourself, are you just, you know, a nerd and you wanna just have the latest and greatest or you know, do you have something in your workflow that needs more power? It's just kind of like, look at all the things that you're doing and kind of make a decision for yourself, you know.
Well, remind me again about the ports. Is it two USB C ports and.
A Thunderbolt or you've got one Mag safe. So Mag Safe is if you want to charge, you have that option. Now you also have two USB C ports and one of those is also a charging port if you need it to be. But you still have two just in case. And you can hook up like external monitors or internal hard or external hard drives or you know, if you need to plug in a hub or an Interface or any of that stuff. You can do all that. And it also has a audio jack if you want to plug in headphones. And that's pretty much it. I mean, it's, you know, easy peasy.
Yep. I think it's great, and I love the portability. I took my little MacBook Air and my M3 with me to CSUN, and I really appreciated having it there. And it's just really portable and awesome and thin, and it was great.
Yeah, they're great machines, definitely.
So in case somebody might be running out of hard drive space, I wanted to mention an app that you sent me a link to. And this would be good for people who maybe got a 256 and are concerned about duplicate files. Maybe they want to free up some storage without deleting files. Because I think Apple keeps track of files with the. Its file system and the changes that happen. And maybe it's kind of confusing to me how it keeps track of its storage, but there's a really cool app called Hyperspace, and I wrote down what it said on the macramers website. And so it. It says here that it removes duplicates as you point to a folder. And I found that it was accessible with voiceover, which was great. And what I did find, though, is that it's not the best thing to use. It's not possible to use it with cloud storage. So you have to be sure that the files that you're. The folders that you're wanting to check out are actually downloaded to your computer. And so, yeah, so I think that would be Hyperspace. It's all one word, and it's in the Mac App Store, and it was super easy to install, and you can try it out. It is $9 to use it for one month, and it's $19 for a year. And then if you want to have it for a lifetime membership, it's $49. So it just scans your hard drive and finds duplicates, and it alerts you to what those are. So I think that's cool for people to know about for their storage. Do you have any storage management apps that you really depend on to let you know about duplicates, or have you not explored that yet?
I haven't really messed around with duplicates yet. I kind of just do all of my storage backing up manually, whether that's, you know, moving stuff to external hard drives and cloud storage, making folders as need be. There's some good archive tools that are built in to the Mac OS that I typically use. So, like, for Example, one thing I would do, this wouldn't necessarily make your information, you know, take away duplicates, but you could take a bunch of stuff, put it in a folder, and then you could zip up that folder or archive that folder and turn it into like one file, which would make it easier than to put into cloud storage or put into an external hard drive. Sure, there are other tools out there that kind of have multi function where you can, you know, take away duplicates. You can also clean up and do maintenance and run jobs on your hard drive, stuff like that. But this is the first thing I've seen, at least in a while, that strictly just does one thing and does one thing well, which sometimes is a better thing, actually. You know, sometimes they try and stuff so many things into an app that it does a bunch of things okay, but not any one thing great. So I appreciate that someone takes the time to actually build something that has one purpose and it does it great, you know, Right.
That's awesome. And it also means it's probably more accessible because it does that one thing. And as long as the. The interface of the app is accessible, which it was to me, it pointed me in a folder and I was kind of in a hurry. Cause I thought, I just want to check this out really quick. And then I needed to find a folder actually had downloaded rather than examining my storage. But it was cool. It was. It was really, really easy. Just put the little icon on my dock and I was up and running with it. So that was neat.
And I will definitely also say, you know, I'm grateful, thankful that as part of building this app, they just automatically put in the accessibility features that you would need as a part of building the app. You know, you don't have to go back and ask them to do it. You don't have to have a real bad version of it or it be an afterthought. I much appreciate that. You know, they take the time to build the app for everyone, right? Like it's not an afterthought. So I much appreciate that and respect the developer for that.
Really cool. I think it's worth sending every developer that has something that's immediately accessible, whether it was on purpose or accidental, to just email them, you know, and say, hey, thanks so much. So recently you were telling me about a category of apps and things that I don't really know much about. I know the concept, but I don't really know much about them. They sound really handy. And that is the category of RSS readers. Can you tell us for Those who may not know what they are, what they are and what they do, and maybe a couple of examples.
Sure. So you look at it kind of like email. The technology part of it is like email. So when you're using your email, every time you get a new email, your email application knows that you know something is out there and pulls it right into your app so that you can actually take a look at the email that you received and read whatever the email is. And it gives you all the information and all of that stuff. It does it kind of on its own. Unless you have some weird mail set up where you have to go manually get your mail or hit a button to sync or something like that, the majority of people, you know, have it so that it just automatically knows that you got email and it pulls it into your email application. Well, RSS is the same way. They have a bunch of different apps out there that all at the end of the day do the same thing. If there, let's say that you have a news feed, let's say you're looking at a blog on like Unmute, for example, and there's a new post, then the application will know, hey, there's a new post out there, and it will automatically bring it in. All of these apps are super robust and so you can kind of look at what app you would suit your needs the best. They have everything from super basic to super advanced and everything in between. And so every time you want to collect, you know, different articles or maybe there's a favorite website that you have out there that you want to keep up on, instead of having to go out to the Internet to find it, it will bring it into the app. You just open up your app and you can read all of, you know, your articles from all the different websites that you, you know, have set up in your RSS reader. So a lot of great features that are in just about all of them is that of course you don't have to go out to the web and go to all these different websites. You can kind of build your RSS reader to get and bring to you your favorite, you know, websites, topics, whatever it is. And another great thing that I really like about it is that it usually strips out all the junk that you have to deal with when you go to a website with a web browser. You know, you're not going to deal with pop up windows, you're not going to deal with really much of that. It basically just takes the article, strips all the stuff out of it and makes it so you can Read the article right there in your app. You know, if you're going to get into it and you've never done it before, I would highly recommend using Net News Wire. And the reason why I say that first and foremost, which people will love, it's actually open source. So it's an open source app and it's actually free 100%. You don't have to pay for anything. And it's across all the platforms. So you can get it for your Mac, you can get it for your iPhone, iPad, all the things, and you can configure it however you want. Personally, you know, with the RSS readers that I use, I do what's called cloud syncing. So whatever I do on my computer will match, you know, on my iPhone, if I go open up the app there. So, like, for example, let's say there was three articles from Unmute that was published, right? And I read those on my computer, then they're shown as red. Now when I go over, it'll sync to the cloud, and when I go over to my phone later and maybe look to see what I have, it will show those as also red. So it kind of matches everything, which is what I like. You stay current across all your devices. With cloud syncing, it strips out all the ads. You know, it's great. And of course, then you can go out and you can find ones that do more stuff. You know, ones that will do video stuff. Say, like, you have a favorite YouTube channel. You could put that in there. And every time a YouTube video is published, it'll pull it into your RSS reader. And if it has that capability to be able to play video, then you just play the video right in the RSS reader and you don't have to go deal with YouTube and all of that. And it strips all the junk out and. And it's really great. I love it. I'm hugely into RSS readers because it's just so much easier once you figure out all of the things that you want to know about on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. When it comes to news or entertainment or anything for that matter, you just open one app and it's all right there. So that's great. I really like it a lot. I'm a huge RSS reader. It started way back. Google kind of started. They had a. A whole system for RSS and, you know, being able to do this technology and they kind of do what they always do, decided we don't want to do that anymore, and they killed it for no reason. And they really upset a lot of people because it was really popular. And then we kind of went away from rss. It wasn't so popular for a little bit, but it's really making a resurgence now. And there's some really amazing apps out there that do a lot of really, really cool stuff. And like I said, some are free, some you pay for, some you have a subscription, some you got a flat fee, one time purchase. It just all depends on what your needs are, what you want. But if you want to start with rss, I highly recommend Net News Wire because it is free. And if you do like that, you can continue using it, but you can also then go out and see what else there is out there to, you know, in RSS readers. Uh, it's also very accessible on all the platforms with Voiceover, they make sure that that works well. So it does. And there you go. You know, it's basically what an RSS reader is.
Awesome. So it, it, it's primarily for articles, not maybe like new podcast releases.
Or you could, if you, I mean, a podcast at the end of the day is an RSS reader. You could put your podcast into an RSS reader if you wanted to.
Like the link to the feedback.
Yeah, you would just go to the main feed of a website that has an RSS feed or your, you know, wherever the podcast is, and you could get that feed and then you could put it into your RSS reader. And it's actually pretty cool. Most of them at its base level. You can organize it in folders. So you can have, you know, different folders with different, you know, of your favorite from each topic, you know, so say like, you like cooking, right? You can have a cooking folder and all the cooking stuff will go into that folder. You can have technology, you can have, you know, whatever you can think of, as long as there's an RSS feed for it. You can, you can do that. Now here's a pro tip, actually. If you like YouTube videos, you could go on a web browser, go to YouTube and go to your favorite or whoever, you know, YouTube channel, the main channel, you can copy that link and then you could take that link and you could put it into an RSS reader. And as long as your RSS reader that you're using has video option to be able to also watch video, then you can drop that into your RSS reader. And every time you open up your RSS reader, it will sync, it'll fetch and bring whatever new feeds are out there from your news channel or from your YouTube channel. And you can watch those YouTube videos right in the RSS feed, and it strips out all the commercials and the junk and everything else.
That's cool.
Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I'm a huge fan of rss, so if you've never tried it out, give it a try and see how it works for you.
Excellent. Well, thank you. We'll have to report back in because I think I'm going to do that because I love the idea of stripping out all the junk, and especially now I do have, like, a YouTube Music subscription, but I definitely want to strip out all the crud with the commercials on the regular YouTube.
Yeah, I'm not sure how it would work with the music part of it. You'd have to try.
Yeah, I'm not sure that would work either. But I still have to contend with the junk.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, for sure.
Awesome to check that out. So I found another thing on Mac Rumors that I wanted to talk with you about, and this is very appealing. I am getting so frustrated with Google. I'm sorry, Google, I got a nice little bag from you at the CSUN.
Conference, but I held onto that bag quite a bit.
Yeah, right. And so what is frustrating to me is that all the ads and all the junk at the top of the search, just give me the web results. Come on. I don't want all that crud at the top. And so it's frustrating. And I really like the results of ChatGPT. So what I read that you sent me from MacRumors, it said that Chat GPT can be used as a default Safari search engine with a new extension.
Yeah.
And so the website said, after updating to the latest version of ChatGPT app. So that means I need to go and install the Chat GPT app on my Mac, not the Mac GPT app like you have.
Right, right.
And it says the ChatGPT search extension can be enabled in the Safari section of the Settings app. So on my Mac, I would go to Settings in Safari and I would turn that on. So after you turn that on, that directs all queries typed into the Safari search bar to chatgpt Search instead of Google or whatever your default search engine is set to. And it needs permission to access google.com or whatever site you know you're using, but you know you'll. You'll be redirected to Chat GPT rather than going through the default. That is super exciting to me because I feel like that's been the most useful thing that I've been using lately, is chatgpt to do stuff and I can ask it where it got its sources and I believe it generally lists those, so I can go and fact check it, you know. So, yeah, what do you think about that?
I think it's changing the way everyone does research, does writing. I mean, it's so much better because you really can hone in what you're looking for. Right. And so you could start at a very high level and put in a topic and it could bring you back information about that topic. But the great thing is, which search engines don't really do, is you can do what's called prompting, which then you can really hone down and keep kind of guiding it and you know, telling it, you know, take this away, add this, maybe put this into there, whatever the case is, and you really come out with something really good and something close to what you're looking for with way more detail in the end. You just can't do that with a browser, you know, I mean, with a browser it's like, okay, you're looking for, you know, insert whatever here, you know, and it goes out and you know, like you said, there's a bunch of advertisements at the top and then it's just every random weird thing out there, right. And when you use, you know, any of these other, you know, services, ChatGPT and alike, it just is great that you can hone it in and you just get way better information. I really think it's game changing and I think that search engines are in big trouble, Honestly, just a regular old search engine. I think as soon as somebody learns about what, you know, like a ChatGPT is or any of the other, you know, language models that are out there, I think it's going to be real game changing. It's already really game changing and I think it's just going to, you know, it'll be like AI. Everything is AI AI, AI now, you know.
Yep. We've been talking about disruptors lately at, at the conference and you know, there's definitely some company companies who are, are disruptors and I feel like ChatGPT and some of these AI things are really that. And I, I would be looking forward to eliminating the clutter and just getting right to the meat of it, right to the heart of what I'm actually looking for because it takes us time to you, you know, skip through and skip past and decide what's clutter and.
What isn't correct, you know, and it's sort of interesting too because we're at this kind of point right now, where, like, for example, how many different sets of glasses did we see? And they all basically do the same thing. Some of them maybe have a, a trick another one doesn't do or something like that, but at the end of the day, they basically, you know, do all of the same things. You know, they identify things around you. They, you know, will describe a room or an area or a space, something like that, you know, so it's going to be interesting to see over the next year or two, you know, how the different glasses hone in and what each one's going to do better than the other or which one is going to kick all the rest of them, you know, their butts and, and just do something mind blowing, you know, so.
Right.
It'll be interesting to see where we go with this in the next, you know, couple of years.
Sure. And I think whatever makes our work more efficient because it does take us longer to do things. So whenever we can work smarter, not harder. I think that's really a crucial aspect of things. And if I can get ChatGPT to strip out all the junk and just take me to the information, that's what I'm looking for. So I'm going to make sure that I download the ChatGPT app that for Mac. I do have it on my phone and I do access the website and I love it. I just, you know, I love it. I'm just thinking that it would be so much easier if I just had it happen in Safari just automatically without having to take that other step and log, you know, make sure I'm logged in and do all the things. So.
So on your phone, how do you feel about the experience on your phone, say, with ChatGPT opposed to on your computer? On your computer you're a little more robust because you have a little bit more control over things. You know, you can take, you know, your different text that comes out of Chat GPT and you can put it into, you know, an editor and all that kind of stuff. So when you're doing, you know, research and you're using Chat GPT on your phone, what would your workflow be like once you got the information, you wanted to get it out of there and put it into an editor or to do whatever it is you want to do with it?
Well, truth be told, I mean, I have used it on my phone, but that is why I pretty much only use it on my computer, because I might ask it to translate a big whole manual for one of my students. I might ask it to do some things that I'm going to upload a file that I have on the computer and do something with it. I think that's why I primarily use it on my computer is because I can do so many things with what I have on the machine already and have different outputs, whether it's a language or whatnot for the text that I'm working with.
Right, cool.
Mostly on the computer, definitely. Well, we were talking about this sense of community and how awesome it was to be at CSUN where there were so many like minded people and everybody interested in this big field of technology and all the things that are happening. I was just thinking about Mac communities and. And there's obviously a huge PC Windows JAWS or NVDA or whatever you're using lots of people operating in that space. But I feel like the Mac was first to be accessible to us and then Windows. My impression anyway is that Windows took over in the blindness space and then maybe people. There have always been people devoted to Mac. So I think it's really important to have a community that you connect with. And I was just curious how you find Mac folks to connect with. How do you do that? Do you find that really useful and what does that look like for you?
Well, I would say that it depends on what I'm looking for. If I'm looking for, you know, Mac stuff specifically with accessibility in mind, you know, I would definitely look at Apple Viz. They have a huge community over there. There's tons of helpful people, there's tons of helpful articles. So that is someplace that I would, you know, spend a lot of time. If I'm looking for a specific app or if I want to maybe know how an app is. I want to see if there's a review over there, you know, to see about accessibility and stuff like that before I dive into downloading it and going down a rabbit hole and then it possibly maybe not working with accessibility. So I like appleviz a lot. They have a lot of resources there. They also have a lot of good people in the community there when it comes Apple products and accessibility.
Yep.
There's also podcasts that I listen to. We've talked about some of these before, but most of them do have communities. For example, you know, you and I both really enjoy Mac Geek app. They got a huge community over there. So you can go to their website and go dive into their community. Another one I like is Mac Power Users. They're really great. They have a huge community as well. So it's not too hard to find. Just got to take a Couple of minutes and even if you're listening to a podcast a lot of time they'll even say hey, go join our community, whatever the case is. So that's kind of what I do for the most part.
Yeah, that's great because you have a mix of mainstream with Mac geek gab and the Mac power users and then the whole accessibility piece with appleviz. And I really appreciate that combination of what's out there, mainstream. Does it work for me? I'll find out. Maybe I'll ping the Apple Viz community and say hey, I heard about this cool app. What do you think? Or obviously reporting when something's not working. You have lots of support and camaraderie with, with folks too. And you know, and then, you know, you identify your Mac friends, you know, who is who all is using Mac and then I just found out. Well, I knew about it last year because I was listening to macgeekab. But the Mac Stock Conference and Expo is a large group, I would say. Well, maybe I've heard it's about 200 people gather every summer and it's been for the last. I think this is maybe the second or third year it's been in Crystal Lake, Illinois which is just 40 miles outside of Chicago. And our friend Allison at the no Silicast, she has this longest running Mac podcast coming up here about 20 years. She's a huge fan and contributor to the the Mac Stock and those folks that have founded it knows, I believe his name is Mike Potter. And so anyway I was asking her hey, is this just for programmers or developers? You know, who is it for? And she said oh no, no, no, it's for your average person who loves the Mac and you know, developers and programmers could come too, but it's for people levels. And so she was kind of encouraging me that maybe I should sort of submit a presentation for it, which I did. And whether or not it is accepted, I'm going to speak on an accessibility topic using a couple of important apps that we, at least one of which we use a lot. Some of us is remote incident Manager. But anyway, I have applied to be a speaker but whether I'm chosen or not, I really want to go to this expo because it's three days in July, mid July and constant hour to hour presentations. It's iOS and Mac and it's really cool.
Yeah, it sounds like a blast. I'd like to go also one of these years maybe I'll make it out there because it sounds really fun and I also, as long as we were talking about. Just a second ago, we were talking about Mac communities out there. We definitely have to give a shout out to Allison from podfeet, and her podcast is called no Silicast. And she. She actually has a great community of people that follow her, and they're called, or I should say she calls them the no Cilla Castaways, but there's some great people there. You know, that is a really good camaraderie, and so that's a fun and a great place to hang out if you're into Mac and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And of course, you know, we have to say, you know, she is amazing. She's a great friend, she's a great person, she's a great mentor. She does so much for our community. So we definitely got to give her a shout out and, you know, go check out her podcast and it's called no Silica Cast. And yeah, she's amazing. We love her and she's a great person for the community and the people. So, yeah, definitely check her out.
Accessibility. And I wondered, why was it called no Cila? And finally, either someone told me or I realized it's Allison backwards.
Yeah.
So N O S I L L A no Cilla Cast. And so, yeah, she's really. She's really great, and we got to have lunch with her recently and we really, really enjoyed it. But she, she just has such a heart for accessibility, and she wants to understand how things work or don't work for us. And so it's just a really great. It's just a really great thing that she's in our corner, you know.
Oh, yeah, she's amazing. She's great.
So she is. So I, I consider that, you know, all these things and all these wonderful people are great resources, and they really help me stay encouraged and be a part of the whole Mac ecosphere. Because it's, you know, I would say it's one thing for someone to come to iPhone and say, oh, yeah, hey, I know. Voiceover on the iPhone. Great, I'll just get a Mac. Well, it's a steep learning curve. It can be for folks, and so to feel like you're not all hanging out there by yourself and there are people who are supportive. It's really a great thing.
So, absolutely.
Yeah. So having community is good, which is kind of the way we started talking today about the community that we found at csun. And there's lots of great content that's coming out from all the different topics and all the different shows that are presenting so that's really cool. Is there anything else you wanted to be sure to mention before we wrap up here?
Yeah, I would say check out, actually, and we were super excited about this, but we did a CSUN wrap up with a Double Tap, guys, and that was amazing. So you can go over to the Double Tap podcast or their YouTube channel and you can find that content that we were in. And we had a blast. We did it a couple of different places, but specifically at the end of the convention, we did a CSUN wrap up right in the middle of the vendor floor, right by lg. And it was fun. We just had a great time.
So we did.
It was really a blast. Fast. Yeah.
Yep. Absolutely. Yep. Awesome. Well, in case people have comments or feedback or ideas for future topics for us, what's the best way for us to hear from folks? Marty?
Yeah, well, you can email us at Feedback Mute Show. You can also check out our website at Unmute show. And if you have any topics, something you'd like us to talk about, or maybe something you'd like us to review, let us know and we'll do our best to try to make that happen.
It we will. And we appreciate everybody joining us today, and we're looking forward to chatting with you next month.
Sounds good. We'll see you next time. Thanks, Chris.
Thanks, Marty.