WEBVTT 00:02.000 --> 00:05.000 Hello and welcome to the HumanWare See Things Differently podcast. 00:06.000 --> 00:16.000 Each month, join your hosts, Rachel Ramos and David Woodbridge as we bring you engaging interviews from guests, interaction from our one of a kind distribution partners, stories that will take you off the beaten path. 00:17.000 --> 00:20.000 Current promos, shows where you can find us and so much more. 00:20.000 --> 00:23.000 So stick around. 00:23.000 --> 00:26.000 Greetings and salutations 00:26.000 --> 00:28.000 See Things Differently listeners. 00:28.000 --> 00:31.000 Welcome to episode seven. 00:31.000 --> 00:32.000 I am Rachael Ramos. 00:32.000 --> 00:45.000 I am here with David Woodbridge, and we are just super excited to bring you an episode full of low vision chat. 00:46.000 --> 00:56.000 And of course, to do that we had to bring in the veteran, the pro, the absolutely amazing Shelly Brisbin. 00:56.000 --> 00:59.000 She is a veteran podcaster. 01:00.000 --> 01:01.000 She is a radio producer. 01:01.000 --> 01:04.000 She writes the iOS Access For All book. 01:05.000 --> 01:06.000 She hosts Six Colors. 01:06.000 --> 01:11.000 She has been on the Parallel podcast, which is a tech podcast about accessibility. 01:11.000 --> 01:14.000 She now hosts Lions, Towers and Shields. 01:15.000 --> 01:26.000 So we are just super, super jazzed to bring her on and we are just going to have a chat about low vision as David and I are not. 01:26.000 --> 01:37.000 So we are definitely not the pros in this category, but good thing Shelly is so Shelly, welcome to the podcast is our pleasure to have you here. 01:38.000 --> 01:39.000 Thanks for having me. 01:39.000 --> 01:41.000 Thanks for that great introduction. I really appreciate it. 01:41.000 --> 01:42.000 Glad to be here. 01:42.000 --> 01:49.000 Shelly, you have been around the podcasting and radio producing space and you have done a lot for a long time. 01:50.000 --> 02:02.000 So I guess the first question I want to start things off with is, have you always had low vision and how has that affected your radio producing work and your podcasting? 02:02.000 --> 02:06.000 And then we'll jump into your book writing process and the tech you use. 02:06.000 --> 02:08.000 Sure. So I was born with low vision. 02:08.000 --> 02:12.000 It's a blockage of the optic nerve, and it means that I'm very nearsighted. 02:12.000 --> 02:14.000 I'm also really photophobic. 02:14.000 --> 02:20.000 And so, and, you know, all sorts of good stuff, like, I'm, you know, two inches from the computer screen when I'm using it. 02:20.000 --> 02:25.000 And I really became able to do the kind of work I do. 02:25.000 --> 02:27.000 Back in the day, it was writing and publication. 02:27.000 --> 02:30.000 So instead of radio audio, I'm much happier in the audio world. 02:30.000 --> 02:37.000 But I became able to do the kind of work I do because of graphical user interfaces that made it possible for me. 02:37.000 --> 02:48.000 Instead of having to like, lay out a newspaper or something on a physical whiteboard like they did way back in the day, I could use desktop publishing, and I had enough vision to make that work, and I used Macintoshes. 02:48.000 --> 02:58.000 And then just going forward, I spent a lot of years sort of hacking my own accessibility and figuring out, well, what low vision tools exist and where none exist. 02:58.000 --> 03:02.000 What is the thing that I can do that makes it possible for me to use this computer? 03:02.000 --> 03:04.000 And sometimes that was easier and harder- 03:04.000 --> 03:05.000 Sometimes it was harder. 03:06.000 --> 03:15.000 But today, I'm happy to say that there are a lot of both tools that are specific, specific to the needs of somebody with low vision that are made for them. 03:15.000 --> 03:19.000 And then also tools that just sort of accidentally kind of work for me. 03:19.000 --> 03:31.000 And I think the thing that makes it possible for me to do what I do, the way I do it, is just that I have always been fairly technical, so I've always been able to find the solution that works for me instead of having to go to somebody else. 03:31.000 --> 03:38.000 Because when I've gone to other people and had to say, you know, this thing doesn't work, can we make it work better? 03:38.000 --> 03:44.000 Those experiences haven't been as good as the ones where I've said, okay, I've got a thing I need to fix myself. 03:44.000 --> 03:47.000 Well, the thing about low vision is that everybody's low vision is a little bit different. 03:47.000 --> 03:58.000 And I'm not saying I mean that people who are totally blind have different experiences too, because they have different levels of patience and different levels of technology and all different levels of experience. 03:58.000 --> 04:03.000 But if you're low vision, it's really hard to explain to somebody, yes, I can see, but no, I can't see. 04:03.000 --> 04:08.000 And people either assume you can see a lot more or a lot less than you can. 04:08.000 --> 04:15.000 And it's like that old Saturday Night Live skit where the, the, the tech guy is like, just move, move, get out the way. 04:15.000 --> 04:22.000 I'll do it because it is easier to move somebody out of the way and try and fix my own problem than it is often time- 04:22.000 --> 04:32.000 Not that I haven't asked- like there have been times at jobs when I've asked for an accommodation, but I've known very specifically what I needed. 04:32.000 --> 04:38.000 Instead of saying I can't read this screen, make it so I can read it, I've said, okay, this is the application that I'm using. 04:38.000 --> 04:41.000 This is the software version I'm using, blah, blah blah. 04:42.000 --> 04:53.000 Here's the specific thing I, I need a, a space that's darker so there's not as much fluorescent light over my head, or I need, headphones so that I can use a screen reader or speech or something like that. 04:53.000 --> 04:56.000 So knowing what you need is kind of a big part of it. 04:57.000 --> 05:03.000 All of us working with a visual disability have to problem solving and know what needs we have, especially if our vision has changed. 05:03.000 --> 05:08.000 Has your vision changed over the years, Shelly, and you've had to problem solve differently? 05:08.000 --> 05:16.000 That's a really good question, because I, it's actually been a while since I've been to an appointment and had it, calculated. 05:16.000 --> 05:18.000 You know what? You know, 20 over whatever it is. 05:18.000 --> 05:21.000 So, I don't know, my experience of my vision is 05:21.000 --> 05:24.000 I don't think my close up vision has changed much. 05:24.000 --> 05:31.000 I think my distance vision and my sensitivity to light has changed because I have some mobility challenges that I didn't before. 05:31.000 --> 05:37.000 I feel like I'm using a cane more than I used to, which at my age is sort of an adjustment and something I didn't really expect. 05:37.000 --> 05:40.000 But I feel more confident and safer when I use it. 05:41.000 --> 05:44.000 As far as close-uUp vision for reading and doing work, 05:44.000 --> 05:45.000 I don't feel like it's changed much. 05:45.000 --> 05:47.000 And which is kind of weird because that's what I thought. 05:47.000 --> 05:55.000 People with typical vision usually, you know, once they get into their middle age, they're like, oh yeah, my vision is really different and I'm wearing different glasses. 05:55.000 --> 06:01.000 I feel I've changed reading glasses prescriptions over the years, but it hasn't been like, oh, this is really, really different. 06:01.000 --> 06:12.000 Actually, there's one thing I've always been in from a low vision point of view, is if you're low vision and you're using a cane, do people get a bit confused that, well, hang on a minute. 06:12.000 --> 06:15.000 Don't I have blind people and blind people use canes? 06:15.000 --> 06:15.000 What is this? 06:15.000 --> 06:17.000 What is kind of low vision business? 06:17.000 --> 06:19.000 You must be pretending. 06:19.000 --> 06:23.000 Well, that's sometimes you get that and sometimes it's just- 06:23.000 --> 06:26.000 So I will walk down a sidewalk using my cane. 06:26.000 --> 06:29.000 I will see somebody well enough to avoid them. 06:29.000 --> 06:31.000 That must really confuse them, because here I am. 06:31.000 --> 06:34.000 I'm coming straight at them and then I'm going, oh, okay, I need to move. 06:34.000 --> 06:37.000 And I usually I mean, I don't know how they're looking at me. 06:37.000 --> 06:39.000 I can't see their faces. 06:39.000 --> 06:43.000 I may be getting weird, blurred looks, but I can't worry about it because I can't fix it. 06:43.000 --> 06:49.000 I, I'm just who I am and I have heard people say that they have been and not me so much. 06:49.000 --> 06:51.000 People accused of pretending. 06:51.000 --> 06:55.000 And that must be really challenging and I think I would fight. 06:55.000 --> 06:58.000 I would, I would be obnoxious and I would be like, no, I'm not pretending. 06:58.000 --> 07:04.000 And I would or I would just walk away and in disgust because I just like, that's it's not up to me to explain myself to you. 07:04.000 --> 07:07.000 It's not I'm not asking you for anything. 07:07.000 --> 07:10.000 I'm not asking you to do anything differently because of my low vision. 07:10.000 --> 07:11.000 So just leave me alone. 07:11.000 --> 07:15.000 I just thought for low vision, people, it's almost like that black and white thing. 07:15.000 --> 07:19.000 You know, if you've got sight, you've got "low vision", or you're blind. 07:19.000 --> 07:21.000 There's no gray area in between. 07:21.000 --> 07:26.000 And I think it's actually really, really hard for low vision people because to just assume too much. 07:27.000 --> 07:30.000 Well, sometimes you have to explain because sometimes you do need assistance. 07:30.000 --> 07:34.000 The airport is a really good example where a lot of airport signage 07:34.000 --> 07:38.000 I can read pretty well, but sometimes if I'm in a hurry, it's a challenge. 07:38.000 --> 07:40.000 Or sometimes I can't read signage. 07:40.000 --> 07:46.000 Also, a lot of people or a lot of airports are being redesigned in such a way that there's a lot more light coming through. 07:46.000 --> 07:49.000 They're trying to put more natural light in the airport, which is great visually, except for me. 07:50.000 --> 07:54.000 It's terrible because I often can't find or read a sign. 07:54.000 --> 08:02.000 There are also gates where, you are fed into one large area and a number of gates feed off of that area. 08:02.000 --> 08:06.000 And I was in, was in Houston where I had to 08:06.000 --> 08:11.000 I went into a gate area and then they said, okay, go down this escalator and then turn here and turn here. 08:11.000 --> 08:12.000 And I was like, you know what? 08:12.000 --> 08:16.000 I need some assistance because you just gave me too many directions. 08:16.000 --> 08:17.000 I have a flight to catch. 08:17.000 --> 08:18.000 Right. Well, yeah. 08:18.000 --> 08:29.000 And so I've had to sort of come to terms with how to ask for assistance and how to deal with the fact that people are not going to give me the exact level of assistance that I wish no more, no less. 08:29.000 --> 08:47.000 I want to jump to kind of the digital world that's always kind of, a cat and mouse game to, oh, man, what website will encounter today where I've got to use three different screen readers and five different browsers until I accomplish the task, Shelly, what in terms of and we talk about Six Colors, for instance. 08:48.000 --> 08:55.000 But what tech do you use to if if you do website development or just computer work and how does that change? 08:55.000 --> 08:58.000 Well, let me really quickly say that Six Colors is not my website. 08:58.000 --> 09:02.000 That is a Apple focused website, belongs to Jason Snell, and I write for him. 09:03.000 --> 09:06.000 And, you know, I guess it's kind of ironic because if I write about accessibility, 09:06.000 --> 09:09.000 I do have to write about color and how annoying it is to me. 09:10.000 --> 09:18.000 As far as Daily tech on the web, I have found I'm a Mac person predominantly on, on the, on the computer side and then an iPhone person. 09:18.000 --> 09:28.000 So I'm in that Apple bubble, you know, but what I've found is that dark mode has improved significantly in the past couple of versions of Mac OS, because before then I used invert colors, 09:28.000 --> 09:48.000 Smart Invert colors almost exclusively, and now a combination of dark mode and a browser extension that will fix websites that aren't dark mode friendly usually will do it, but I also have the Invert Colors keyboard shortcut mapped so that at any moment, if some app comes to me, that's blinding white. 09:48.000 --> 09:51.000 I can quickly jump into invert colors like so. 09:51.000 --> 10:06.000 So it's just it's having the tools right to hand and keyboard shortcuts are my friend. And then on iOS, again, dark mode and Smart Invert colors is, you know, right there on some sort of keyboard shortcut or back tap or whatever it is I'm using at the moment. 10:06.000 --> 10:10.000 I use magnification some, not so much. 10:11.000 --> 10:29.000 I guess I could go, I guess on the web I usually at pretty standard text size, but then I will magnify specific websites because I want to magnify just as much as I have to, and no more, because the more you magnify, the more weird the web page looks relative to the images and to the other graphical elements. 10:29.000 --> 10:32.000 Because I read constantly, both for work and for pleasure. 10:33.000 --> 10:42.000 And so I almost always send something I want to read if it's on the web to a read it later service or to voice stream reader, and then I will use audio to read it. 10:42.000 --> 10:56.000 And the great thing about voice, stream, reader or speech via any of those apps that will give you speech is that you can put your phone in your pocket and go about your business and be read to while you're doing your, you know, cooking in the kitchen or cleaning the house or whatever it is. 10:56.000 --> 11:02.000 And so I, I, I am not an interface speech user, but I am definitely a content speech user. 11:02.000 --> 11:05.000 What's been your experience from a low vision point of view? 11:05.000 --> 11:12.000 Defined apps particularly easy to use on iOS or iPad OS versus the Mac? 11:12.000 --> 11:14.000 Generally speaking? 11:14.000 --> 11:33.000 Yeah, that's a good way of putting it that the apps, the layouts are simpler or that they're just fewer things you can do on this on the screen based on the UI for the the operating system, also on the Mac, a lot of times you'll have somebody, a developer who has decided to do something really pretty with his sidebar. 11:33.000 --> 11:36.000 And so that makes it very low contrast and hard to read. 11:36.000 --> 11:40.000 So it's like, that's a really pretty app, but I can't use it or I can't use it very well. 11:40.000 --> 11:46.000 And so as a non Voiceover user on the Mac, I don't really have any problems with the layout of apps. 11:46.000 --> 11:50.000 Typically it's usually about color contrast or sometimes the size of text. 11:51.000 --> 11:55.000 Or if you have icons that don't have text labels or don't give you the option for text labels, it's like, 11:55.000 --> 11:58.000 I don't know what that little image is supposed to be. 11:59.000 --> 12:01.000 And sometimes blowing it up really big doesn't help. 12:01.000 --> 12:02.000 Like emojis are the same way. 12:02.000 --> 12:06.000 Like I only know emojis when I hover over them or when I hear them spoken. 12:06.000 --> 12:14.000 So I appreciate everyone's love of emojis, but they're kind of a pain for me because I have to go some extra effort to figure out what they mean. 12:14.000 --> 12:21.000 As a low vision person, do you do you use keyboard commands more or trackpad commands more? 12:21.000 --> 12:24.000 No, I don't even use trackpad commands at all for what you don't. 12:24.000 --> 12:25.000 And I tell you why that is. 12:25.000 --> 12:31.000 It's because my laptop is in clamshell mode and because I'm using a screen or, you know, some sort of monitor. 12:31.000 --> 12:38.000 I don't use the built in screen that I was thinking about that because I have friends who talk about, oh, I haven't used a mouse in years, I only use a trackpad. 12:38.000 --> 12:39.000 And I had to think back. 12:39.000 --> 12:41.000 I was like, why don't I use a trackpad? 12:41.000 --> 12:44.000 I could go buy an external Magic Trackpad. Why? 12:45.000 --> 12:48.000 Because most of the time I'm using a keyboard and I like it that way. 12:48.000 --> 12:56.000 So much so that I have things like Text Expander and Keyboard Maestro that give me abilities to do keyboard shortcuts of all kinds. 12:56.000 --> 12:59.000 And so yeah, I, I much prefer a keyboard. 12:59.000 --> 13:02.000 And then sometimes I have to find my mouse like, oh right. 13:02.000 --> 13:03.000 I have to point it that that's annoying. 13:03.000 --> 13:06.000 I do love that you use keyboard shortcuts. 13:06.000 --> 13:20.000 And because a lot of folks who if they have some vision, they're going to use it and they'll kind of hunt around on the screen until they find what they need to click on and you just you saying that you use keyboard shortcuts as a low vision person just makes me so happy because I think everybody should. 13:20.000 --> 13:21.000 So helpful. 13:22.000 --> 13:36.000 My suggestion to people that haven't done it or don't appreciate the value of them, is find one tool that lets you use them, whether it's your operating system like MacOS or Windows, or whether it's Text Expander, something that works for you. 13:36.000 --> 13:43.000 Find one tool and get really good at a few keyboard shortcuts that do something really important to you. 13:43.000 --> 13:52.000 And then after you've mastered those few and your muscle memory has acquired those few, then go on to the next thing on Windows or Mac or even iOS. 13:52.000 --> 13:59.000 Do you have a favorite, let's say, program or app that you find that really helps you be productive? 13:59.000 --> 14:02.000 For instance, I love, Sharp Keys. 14:02.000 --> 14:06.000 It's available, I believe, just on Windows, and it allows you to remap keys. 14:06.000 --> 14:12.000 So if I have a keyboard that doesn't have an insert key or it's not located in a place I find convenient, 14:12.000 --> 14:15.000 I simply just remap my grave accent key, because who uses that? 14:16.000 --> 14:18.000 If you do, that is amazing and I'd love to hear from you. 14:18.000 --> 14:30.000 Podcast@humanware.com. But so that's, I would say one of my favorite programs that helps me speed up my time on windows and adding shortcuts to get things done. 14:30.000 --> 14:31.000 But do you have one? 14:31.000 --> 14:33.000 And then David, I'd love to hear from you if you have one. 14:33.000 --> 14:34.000 So I love Text Expander because, 14:34.000 --> 14:38.000 I mean, I am a writer and so I can write you a nice long email. 14:38.000 --> 14:41.000 Unfortunately, I have to write the same nice long email all the time. 14:41.000 --> 14:43.000 And why should I have to do that? 14:43.000 --> 14:46.000 Why can't I just type colon? 14:46.000 --> 14:49.000 I have one colon CSS intro that is. 14:49.000 --> 14:52.000 Hi, I would like to book you on my radio show. 14:52.000 --> 14:54.000 I don't know you and you don't know me. 14:54.000 --> 14:56.000 This is what you need to know. Please say yes. 14:56.000 --> 15:03.000 And that's a whole that's a whole email that is much more formal and fancy than that. In fact, so much so that people will reply to it. 15:03.000 --> 15:05.000 If I was, I'll be like, did I say that in my email? 15:05.000 --> 15:07.000 Oh yeah, I did because Text Expander told me to. 15:07.000 --> 15:11.000 And then I have actually, I do podcast show notes the same way. 15:11.000 --> 15:19.000 So I build podcast show notes in markdown and then I use another little thing called search link on the Mac that will actually fill in the links that go. 15:19.000 --> 15:20.000 So it's it's a movie podcast. 15:20.000 --> 15:34.000 So I have all sorts of links to where you can stream the movie, where you can buy the movie, stuff in the show notes that we've talked about, that we link to, and I build that whole thing in Text Expander, and then I fill it in with search link so I never have to remember. 15:34.000 --> 15:34.000 Okay. 15:34.000 --> 15:41.000 Do we talk about, do we show the streaming link before the, disk link or which, you know, it's just I mean, 15:41.000 --> 15:44.000 I guess it just makes it possible for me to not to have to remember as much stuff. 15:44.000 --> 15:45.000 Fantastic. What about you, David? 15:45.000 --> 15:48.000 What is your kind of favorite, productivity tool? 15:49.000 --> 15:50.000 I'm a really bad person. 15:50.000 --> 16:07.000 Just to ask me what my favorite one is because I use the application that best suits me at the time, which means I can switch between iOS, the iPad version of the iOS version, the Mac version going use Safari, I use Google, 16:07.000 --> 16:14.000 I use Microsoft, it's use Microsoft Word, you use text, it use notes which, by the way, is now on the Apple 16:14.000 --> 16:20.000 Watch in the current beta, which I absolutely love particularly, it looks really weird now because when I'm doing my karate, 16:20.000 --> 16:27.000 I can literally stop in the middle of the, to tatami mat and start reading my notes off my Apple Watch now, with the kata I'm doing. 16:27.000 --> 16:30.000 So it looks really weird. 16:30.000 --> 16:30.000 So no. 16:30.000 --> 16:32.000 So I tend to not use what was at the time. 16:32.000 --> 16:35.000 So I'm gonna have to ask, how's your book going, by the way, Shelley? 16:35.000 --> 16:43.000 Because with I'm actually going to do a new version because there's lots of stuff in the new OS is coming out. 16:43.000 --> 16:48.000 So I'm assuming you're going to do a, a fairly major, not a rewrite, but it's certainly a huge update. 16:49.000 --> 16:50.000 Well, there will be an update. 16:50.000 --> 16:55.000 And every year I say I'm going to come up with a new way of doing it, because the book keeps getting really, really big. 16:55.000 --> 17:01.000 And I keep having to figure out, oh, that's going to take me a really long time to update every word of it. 17:01.000 --> 17:09.000 And so it's possible that I will do an update that is just things that have changed, or it's possible that I'll do a whole new book that's based on the existing. 17:09.000 --> 17:10.000 What I don't know. 17:10.000 --> 17:17.000 I mean, it's actually my perception of this year's updates is it's kind of a middle sized update for Braille users. 17:17.000 --> 17:32.000 For example, it's going to be a big update because it things like real access for low vision people like me probably won't be that big an update because, I mean, it's true, but, but there are things that have not changed very much, and there are things that have changed a lot. 17:32.000 --> 17:35.000 And there are things like the braille access that I have to teach myself because 17:35.000 --> 17:39.000 I'm not a daily Braille user again, but I have to be sort of credible about it. 17:39.000 --> 17:42.000 So, I haven't figured out the structure of it. 17:42.000 --> 17:43.000 That is, but it is books. 17:43.000 --> 17:48.000 It's officially books season now, so my summers are devoted to figuring out what the books are going to look like. 17:48.000 --> 17:55.000 I have to ask you, as a live vision person, what do you feel of the transparency mode in the new what's it called? 17:55.000 --> 17:56.000 The liquid glass. 17:57.000 --> 17:58.000 So yes. Yes. 17:58.000 --> 18:01.000 So first of all, first of all, 18:01.000 --> 18:07.000 I have become- Apple's design fetishism is kind of tedious, I have to admit. 18:07.000 --> 18:09.000 And I thought that some of that would go away when. 18:09.000 --> 18:12.000 When Jony Ive left the team. 18:12.000 --> 18:14.000 But now it's back. And it's not. 18:14.000 --> 18:20.000 To be honest, liquid glass looks scarier from a low vision point of view than it I have found it to be so far. 18:20.000 --> 18:27.000 I mean, it just looks like, oh my God, everything is see-through and you're going to maximize the number of, you know, the levels and depth. 18:27.000 --> 18:30.000 And I guess that's pretty- whatever it's lost on me. 18:31.000 --> 18:35.000 But in practice it doesn't seem so drastic. 18:35.000 --> 18:42.000 And I know that, you know, what people are saying is that there are ways to disable it, and there are going to be ways to get around it. 18:42.000 --> 18:46.000 And I have feelings about how they did that and where in what way they should have done it. 18:47.000 --> 18:50.000 But so far, I'm guardedly optimistic. 18:50.000 --> 18:58.000 Shelley, thank you so much for sticking around with us and talking about how you use technology as a low vision person for work and for play. 18:58.000 --> 19:05.000 You have so much to contribute, and if anybody wants to learn more or get in touch with you, how can they do that? 19:05.000 --> 19:06.000 Where can they find you? 19:06.000 --> 19:16.000 If you want to find my book about iOS accessibility, you can go to https://www.iosaccessbook.com/ . that book is iOS access for all, and I do a new version for each major operating system update. 19:16.000 --> 19:20.000 So, iOS 18 is out there for you now. 19:21.000 --> 19:30.000 You can also find me on Mastodon at Shelly@Zeppelin.flights or on blue Sky. 19:30.000 --> 19:32.000 I'm . 19:32.000 --> 19:34.000 That's Shelly.brisbin.net 19:37.000 --> 19:41.000 All right friends welcome to the Hot Topic segment. 19:41.000 --> 19:44.000 We always have fun with this one. 19:44.000 --> 19:51.000 And in this little snapshot of time we are going to chat about. 19:51.000 --> 20:11.000 And what do you think is better using a device like the iPhone that has built in low vision or magnification features, or using a standalone device like those that we make at HumanWare, or those that you might encounter on Windows or the Mac, or even Prodigi for Windows. 20:12.000 --> 20:16.000 What do you think is better, or does it depend on the situation? 20:16.000 --> 20:22.000 And again, we have the pro Shelly Brisbin here to chat about her experiences. 20:22.000 --> 20:29.000 So Shelley, based on your experiences and what you've seen out in the wild, what do you think is better? 20:29.000 --> 20:33.000 I don't know if I want to say better or best or what do you maybe use most? 20:33.000 --> 20:40.000 Is it an iOS device with low vision built in features, or do you find yourself reaching for a standalone device? 20:40.000 --> 20:44.000 I use the iOS device mostly because it's one device there. 20:44.000 --> 20:45.000 Probably already have it in my hand. 20:45.000 --> 20:48.000 You know, we don't put down our phones, we just carry it around all the time. 20:49.000 --> 20:50.000 It's near at hand. 20:50.000 --> 20:56.000 It's also usually smaller, so and less expensive too, but but mostly smaller and already in my hand. 20:56.000 --> 21:04.000 And sometimes I look longingly at devices that are purpose built for things like accessibility, especially for low vision. 21:04.000 --> 21:10.000 Because I remember being a kid and really wanting a CCTV so badly, and it was either price or space in my room. 21:10.000 --> 21:18.000 I can't remember why I didn't have one at that time, and I got a job at one point where I did get a CCTV as an accommodation and I needed it and it was great. 21:18.000 --> 21:22.000 I loved it and I wanted to take it with me when I left and it didn't get to. 21:22.000 --> 21:30.000 But what's great now is that there are so many devices that are based on tablets or connection to your own device, and you can, you know, you've have. 21:30.000 --> 21:31.000 I've added features. 21:31.000 --> 21:35.000 You can look at the blackboard across the whiteboard, across the room blackboard. 21:35.000 --> 21:37.000 That's how old I am. 21:37.000 --> 21:44.000 Or you can or you can, you know, look at, craft projects or something that's really tiny that maybe even your iPhone camera isn't suited for. 21:44.000 --> 21:54.000 So I think it really depends on what you're doing. To me, those, purpose built devices still feel kind of aspirational to me, in the sense that I like the flexibility. 21:54.000 --> 21:58.000 I like that they they're there for what I want to use them for. 21:58.000 --> 22:05.000 I'm not having to do the workarounds and the hacks to to make them, you know, read very tiny type or show me. 22:05.000 --> 22:07.000 I used to be a coin collector. 22:07.000 --> 22:09.000 And so I would look at coins under a CCTV camera. 22:09.000 --> 22:10.000 It was so cool. 22:11.000 --> 22:15.000 But I, you know, for my own use, I'm probably using the phone 95% of the time. 22:15.000 --> 22:21.000 I mean, I find and again, it comes back to my, you know, my personal life about using the tool that's most appropriate. 22:21.000 --> 22:32.000 So for me, it's yes, you, got the joy of using your own smartphone to do what you do, like, particularly for camera support, you know, in this day of AI and everything else going on, that's cool. 22:32.000 --> 22:48.000 But then, like I said, Shelley then you've got the more dedicated hardware that does more specific things, and they are very good for for distance viewing of the whiteboard, for looking at chemical reactions in a, in a beaker or that sort of general stuff. 22:48.000 --> 22:50.000 So again, to me it's what you want. 22:50.000 --> 22:56.000 But in a now in our previous section, we talked about or sort of slightly touched on the the new operating systems coming out. 22:56.000 --> 23:13.000 And for me, the interesting one is where you'll be able to use a webcam or an external camera, i.e. you know, iPhone or something else, to then use it as a classic, a TV, or as we now probably call it, and I can't I hate the term video magnifier. 23:13.000 --> 23:15.000 I still like the word classic TV. 23:15.000 --> 23:18.000 To look at distance viewing and that sort of cool stuff too. 23:18.000 --> 23:25.000 So I just think, as people say to me, you know, should I buy an external portable video magnifier? 23:25.000 --> 23:28.000 Should I buy a hybrid one that's both portable and desktop? 23:28.000 --> 23:29.000 Should I buy a desktop? 23:29.000 --> 23:32.000 I said, well, look, it really depends on on what you want to do. 23:33.000 --> 23:35.000 It also depends on whether you want hands free. 23:35.000 --> 23:46.000 So, you know, do we even start talking about magnification type glasses or do we talk about smart, you know, text to speech or speech to text glasses. 23:46.000 --> 23:48.000 Do we talk about laptops, desktops? 23:48.000 --> 23:50.000 Do we talk about smartphone tablets, everything else. 23:50.000 --> 23:53.000 So to me it's here's your toolbox. 23:53.000 --> 23:55.000 Let's look at the task that you want to perform. 23:55.000 --> 23:58.000 And let's choose the most appropriate one for you. 23:58.000 --> 24:03.000 I just really think now in this day and age, the, what's the word for it? 24:03.000 --> 24:12.000 The difference between assistive technology and mainstream is becoming so close together now that they almost integrate with each other. 24:12.000 --> 24:21.000 So I guess that's why I'm looking forward to, you know, having more of this hybrid type stuff to do with your, in this case, the Mac OS coming out. 24:21.000 --> 24:27.000 We've got Prodigi for Windows using the, you know, the windows or an external camera. 24:27.000 --> 24:33.000 But we've still got the standalone ones because the other device, some people even don't want to use a smartphone or they don't want to use a computer. 24:33.000 --> 24:36.000 You say, okay, here, here's a device you can hold in your hand. 24:37.000 --> 24:41.000 You don't have to worry about keyboard commands, mouse commands, or anything else. 24:41.000 --> 24:43.000 You turn it on, you point. 24:43.000 --> 24:45.000 You look through the viewfinder. 24:45.000 --> 24:52.000 You can take a snapshot if you want to check the price on something, etc. etc. so again, it comes really back to that thing that you know, what do people want to use it for? 24:52.000 --> 25:02.000 So I just think it's great that we still have standalone products around, but we also have the fact that mainstream is really indeed catching up to what we need to use. 25:03.000 --> 25:09.000 It can depend on the kind of user too, because I got my mom a what are we calling video magnifiers these days? 25:10.000 --> 25:16.000 When she because she was somebody she had an iPad, but she had gotten to the point where she really had trouble reading it, and I couldn't show. 25:16.000 --> 25:22.000 I couldn't teach her how to use it to turn that, flip it over so that she could use the camera to magnify things. 25:22.000 --> 25:24.000 It was just she was too old and too set in her ways. 25:24.000 --> 25:26.000 And I'm not saying that derisively at all. 25:26.000 --> 25:29.000 She was just not going to be suited to that. 25:30.000 --> 25:50.000 So in so in addition to giving her a device that was purpose built, the fact that she was losing her vision, I also knew that if she called support, she would get somebody who understood her and her use case and not somebody that goes, well, you take the thing and you pull down the hamburger menu and blah, blah, blah, because otherwise that's going to be me doing that tech support. 25:50.000 --> 26:02.000 So, so the, the extra sort of money and time we spent finding the right device for her was actually a means of making me feel better about her use case. 26:02.000 --> 26:05.000 And since I am who I am, I could help her in tech support. 26:05.000 --> 26:15.000 That's not always the case, because a lot of people are going to have an older relative who might need a purpose built device like that, and they don't know how to use it because they're just regular people, you know, living their lives. 26:16.000 --> 26:18.000 So how's that for a non-answer? 26:18.000 --> 26:21.000 Rachel? 26:21.000 --> 26:22.000 There isn't any. 26:22.000 --> 26:25.000 There isn't any best or not best device. 26:25.000 --> 26:26.000 There isn't. 26:26.000 --> 26:28.000 And that's just because, you know, we're all different. 26:28.000 --> 26:35.000 I mean, I still use a dedicated solution to scan my mail, and some people might think, man, you're silly, you have apps on your phone that'll do it. 26:35.000 --> 26:35.000 Nice. 26:35.000 --> 26:40.000 Yeah, but sometimes it's nice to just lay a piece of paper on my flatbed scanner. 26:40.000 --> 26:44.000 Hit a button, and within a very short amount of time, I, you know, 26:44.000 --> 26:47.000 I'm able to read through the mail or take down a phone number. 26:47.000 --> 26:51.000 These dedicated solutions know if they're marketing to blind folks. 26:51.000 --> 26:53.000 We're probably going to take a picture upside down. 26:53.000 --> 26:56.000 So let's just automatically reorient for them. 26:56.000 --> 27:02.000 So that's okay I think I think it's great that we have both options standalone and things that are built into our phone. 27:02.000 --> 27:05.000 And I end up using both just depending on what I'm doing. 27:05.000 --> 27:13.000 So I know it's always fun to chat about it, especially from someone who is low vision and uses the, magnification features. 27:13.000 --> 27:16.000 Obviously, way more than David and I ever would. 27:16.000 --> 27:19.000 And we are just so, so happy that you're able to join us. 27:20.000 --> 27:22.000 We're excited for your book in the fall. Right. 27:22.000 --> 27:23.000 Is that when it releases? 27:23.000 --> 27:26.000 Because it all should come back to the book. I hope so. 27:28.000 --> 27:28.000 Yeah. 27:28.000 --> 27:36.000 I, as soon as I possibly can, I every year I say to myself, I'm going to get started really, really early and we're going to get it out as soon after the release as possible. 27:37.000 --> 27:44.000 Last year, there were some challenges in my personal and professional life that made that a little harder to do, but this year I'm getting started as soon as I can. 27:44.000 --> 27:48.000 So hopefully in, you know, October, early November or something like that's what I'm targeting right now. 27:48.000 --> 27:51.000 Oh, and shameless plug for your book. 27:51.000 --> 27:54.000 You can read this book on the Victor Stream, can't you? 27:54.000 --> 27:56.000 Yes you can. 27:56.000 --> 27:57.000 It's funny you should mention that. 27:57.000 --> 28:04.000 I had to get verification of that fact because I am not a Stream owner, and every time I get an email from somebody who wants to read it on the Victor 28:04.000 --> 28:08.000 Reader stream, which is a lot of people actually, I'm like, yeah, I think so. 28:08.000 --> 28:11.000 And so I, I had to go to the source and I had to find out. 28:11.000 --> 28:18.000 And yes, in fact, you can that I learned a few things about the Stream in that process, which was only good, good stuff. 28:18.000 --> 28:20.000 So everybody get Shelley's book. 28:20.000 --> 28:21.000 Read it on our Victor Stream. 28:21.000 --> 28:27.000 If you need assistance, contact us and we will we will get you, up and running with that. 28:27.000 --> 28:30.000 So thank you guys both so much. 28:30.000 --> 28:31.000 Stick around with us. 28:31.000 --> 28:37.000 We'll be back soon with everyone's favorite, the cringe segment that's coming up right after this. 28:39.000 --> 28:46.000 Welcome, everybody to the cringe segment of this month's podcast. 28:46.000 --> 28:51.000 We always enjoy kicking around ideas of what we're going to talk about. 28:51.000 --> 28:56.000 That just makes you go, or cringe, or maybe both. 28:56.000 --> 29:06.000 And this month, David Woodbridge and I are here to regale you of some lovely experiences we've had in the recent past. 29:07.000 --> 29:10.000 So I'm going to jump right in here. 29:10.000 --> 29:27.000 I'm going to talk about a recent shopping experience that I had, and David is going to talk about, about, well, you're just going to have to stay tuned to find out what David's going to talk about. Indeed. 29:27.000 --> 29:44.000 So some things I'm sure that we all have experienced is you are maybe in a convenience store or a food mart, or you're purchasing something, you go to the counter and you're all ready to pay. 29:44.000 --> 29:45.000 You have to card out. 29:45.000 --> 29:50.000 And then there's this awkward interaction that ensues. 29:50.000 --> 29:57.000 Recently I took my card out to pay for some lunch that I was having with some family members who were visiting and 29:58.000 --> 30:04.000 I'm never quite sure where the machine is, because sometimes, it can be behind the counter. 30:04.000 --> 30:15.000 Sometimes it's to your left, it's to your right, and then when I eventually find the machine, you know, they have these tap to pay terminals here, at least in the US, where you can tap your card. 30:15.000 --> 30:16.000 It's very convenient. 30:16.000 --> 30:23.000 You don't have to insert it anymore, but they've changed the location of the tap to pay feature. 30:23.000 --> 30:33.000 Sometimes it's on the left in the machine, sometimes it's on the top of the screen, sometimes it's in the middle. Sometimes you have to flip your card over and it is just a big deal. 30:33.000 --> 30:35.000 And so that's what happened to me recently, was 30:35.000 --> 30:47.000 I was looking around for the machine, trying to find where to tap, but it's just one of those situations that's just kind of like, you know, this could go, a lot better. 30:47.000 --> 30:50.000 It also doesn't feel good when you're sort of fumbling around. 30:50.000 --> 30:51.000 Exactly. 30:51.000 --> 30:56.000 I'm fumbling and stumbling, and then I hear the happy beep when the money is taken. 30:56.000 --> 30:59.000 And that's the easy part. It's almost too quick. 30:59.000 --> 31:00.000 It's over in an instant. 31:00.000 --> 31:07.000 So that was my lovely cringe experiences trying to find the card machine when you are out and about shopping. 31:07.000 --> 31:16.000 And David has a similar experience when he was out and about. I do, yeah, I don't know why people just can't communicate with people and go, can I assist you? 31:16.000 --> 31:19.000 Like if you've got a guide dog or a white cane, you know, would you like help? 31:19.000 --> 31:24.000 Quite finding the device for example, because with my example. 31:24.000 --> 31:29.000 So I went to the theater to watch an audio described How To Train Your Dragon here in Australia. 31:29.000 --> 31:31.000 And so I took my son with me. 31:31.000 --> 31:40.000 We walked up to the counter and I said, the lady behind the counter, can I have an audio describe unit so I can enjoy the movie? 31:40.000 --> 31:41.000 So that was fun. 31:41.000 --> 31:47.000 So as soon as I said it, she of course rocked off, nicked off to get the device. 31:47.000 --> 31:49.000 Now I didn't know that. So I said, 31:50.000 --> 31:53.000 I said, well, I basically said, you know, can you go and get it? 31:53.000 --> 31:57.000 And my son said, well, she's already gone Dad and went, okay, that's strike one. 31:58.000 --> 32:03.000 And so it was a bit quiet there for a moment, and I kept being more and more quiet. 32:03.000 --> 32:06.000 I thought, I'll just kind of say something and go, 32:06.000 --> 32:07.000 I asked my son. 32:07.000 --> 32:08.000 I said, is she back? 32:08.000 --> 32:14.000 And he went, oh yeah, she just dropped it off and put it in front of me, you know, went, okay, so strike two. 32:14.000 --> 32:21.000 The lady couldn't have said, here's your device or my son couldn't have said that she's just dropped it off in front of you. 32:21.000 --> 32:33.000 So I just I'm sort of really disappointed sometimes that we've gone so far in some areas, you know, like know it's amazing how thing how many things are audio described these days. 32:33.000 --> 32:37.000 And, you know, websites sort of continue to struggle. 32:37.000 --> 32:40.000 But overall I guess it's getting gradually a little bit better. 32:40.000 --> 32:44.000 There's talking stuff on trains now and all that sort of really cool stuff. 32:44.000 --> 32:53.000 But just when it comes to some of the basic communication with, quote, customer service people, it's still that's a lot to be desired. 32:53.000 --> 32:55.000 And look, it wouldn't have taken much. 32:55.000 --> 32:57.000 I mean, obviously I was a blind person with a white cane. 32:59.000 --> 33:01.000 And there wouldn't be much to say. 33:01.000 --> 33:03.000 You know, I'm just going to get the device. 33:03.000 --> 33:06.000 This person can't see me walking away. 33:06.000 --> 33:08.000 And number two, when I come back. Hi. 33:08.000 --> 33:08.000 I'm back. 33:08.000 --> 33:10.000 Here's your device. 33:10.000 --> 33:17.000 And actually, you know, I could then could have her up my hand and she could have put it in my hand rather than just all that awkward stuff at the beginning. 33:17.000 --> 33:19.000 And awkward stuff at the end. So, 33:19.000 --> 33:20.000 Strike three. 33:20.000 --> 33:28.000 When I got back to the actual desk, I did point out to the and it wasn't the same person because I could tell that it was a, you know, a different lady. 33:28.000 --> 33:34.000 But I said no, next time, perhaps when you have a blond customer coming in, ask for an ID device. 33:34.000 --> 33:42.000 Could you just please tell the person what you're doing as far as leaving the counter and going and the coming back, let them know what you do. 33:42.000 --> 33:45.000 And I said, geez, that's a really great idea. 33:45.000 --> 33:46.000 We'll pass it on to other staff. 33:46.000 --> 33:52.000 And I thought, that should have been something that was already covered in basic communication type stuff, guys. 33:52.000 --> 33:54.000 So yeah, that was my experience. So great movie. 33:54.000 --> 33:57.000 But again, disappointed by customer service. 33:57.000 --> 34:09.000 I guess my final question was after all of that, because I've had the experience, you get the device, you're all excited, you go in there and it's either staticky or you can't hear it or the description doesn't work. 34:09.000 --> 34:11.000 Did the description work? 34:11.000 --> 34:16.000 It did, but mind you, I was I was about 95% primed for not to work. 34:16.000 --> 34:23.000 The customer thing sort of left a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth, but because it was such an enjoyable movie and the idea actually worked, it was brilliant. 34:23.000 --> 34:25.000 So sort of cancel each other out a little bit. 34:25.000 --> 34:27.000 That is excellent. 34:27.000 --> 34:32.000 You can also order sort of certain type of beverages as well if you want to, while you're also watching the movie. 34:32.000 --> 34:41.000 So perhaps with the F1, I might be ordering a particular beverage while I'm enjoying the movie with Chase, so I'll probably put that back on in the next episode. 34:41.000 --> 34:44.000 So standby. This won't be a cringe moment. 34:44.000 --> 34:50.000 It'll be a it'll be a happy cringe moment when I let people know that I've spilt my beverage in my ID devices and all that. 34:51.000 --> 34:59.000 You know, hopefully when you order the beverage from your seat, let's hope if it's a touch screen that it's accessible, right, we have that. 34:59.000 --> 35:01.000 Maybe we should start a victory segment too. 35:01.000 --> 35:07.000 We talk about cringe, just to be silly, but I wonder and we'd love to hear from you. 35:07.000 --> 35:12.000 You guys want to tell us your successful moments, your triumphs. 35:12.000 --> 35:15.000 That would be that would be lots of fun. 35:16.000 --> 35:17.000 That's a good spontaneous idea. 35:17.000 --> 35:21.000 I know she had this on the podcast. 35:23.000 --> 35:30.000 So but if you have spontaneous ideas that you would like to tell us, your story is your triumphs, maybe your cringe moments. 35:30.000 --> 35:31.000 We would love to hear from you. 35:31.000 --> 35:32.000 Podcast@humanware.com . 35:32.000 --> 35:35.000 Podcast@humanware.com talk to us. 35:35.000 --> 35:38.000 Let us know what is going on with you. 35:39.000 --> 35:44.000 And as Peter used to say, rock n roll, rock n roll, rock on, game on. 35:44.000 --> 35:45.000 Let's go. 35:47.000 --> 35:49.000 Welcome everyone to the 35:49.000 --> 35:53.000 Partner Corners segment for this month's podcast. 35:53.000 --> 35:56.000 And this is my first partner corner. 35:56.000 --> 36:04.000 And I couldn't have asked for a better partner to come on and tell us all about the amazing work they do. 36:04.000 --> 36:20.000 I have the absolute honor and pleasure to be with Kim Nova from Mystic Access, and many of you will know Kim and Chris for their company and what they do in terms of access technology, but they do so much more than just teach. 36:20.000 --> 36:30.000 They partner with organizations like HumanWare and produce many audio tutorials, and they just do an absolutely incredible job. 36:31.000 --> 36:41.000 And so without further talking from from me on my side, Kim, welcome to the podcast first. Thanks, Rachel. 36:41.000 --> 36:56.000 So great to have you here and tell us a little bit for those who may not be familiar, how you got started with Mystic Access and then how you got involved with HumanWare in helping produce the absolutely wonderful tutorials that you do for us in our learning. 36:57.000 --> 36:59.000 Thanks, Rachel, I appreciate that so much. 36:59.000 --> 37:06.000 Well, as Rachel said, I'm Kim Nova, I'm director of products development with Mystic Access, and it's a two person company. 37:06.000 --> 37:11.000 It's just myself and my husband, Chris and I actually joined in 2015. 37:11.000 --> 37:14.000 Cannot believe it has been ten years now since that happened. 37:14.000 --> 37:24.000 And ironically enough, the first product we ever did together for the two of us was a Victor Reader Stream 2 tutorial. 37:24.000 --> 37:45.000 So I kind of have a HumanWare in my DNA for a long time in terms of audio recordings, and the reason that we do audio recordings is we're old and we herald back to a time when a lot of companies included audio as part of their documentation or their product, whatever it was that they were producing and releasing at the time. 37:45.000 --> 37:52.000 Many, many items had audio documentation of some sort, usually on a cassette or six cassettes or whatever it happened to be at the time. 37:53.000 --> 38:03.000 And we thought back to those days of nostalgia and realized how much that audio assisted us as totally blind consumers in learning how to use the products in question. 38:03.000 --> 38:07.000 And we thought, you know, we should bring that back. 38:07.000 --> 38:24.000 And we started thinking about it and ultimately decided what better way to begin than with a Daisy player that at the time, was pretty much the top of the game and the top of the heap for products at the time in that category, which was the Victor Reader Stream 2. 38:24.000 --> 38:28.000 So that was my beginning with Mystic Access and the audio that we do. 38:28.000 --> 38:30.000 Audio is kind of our bread and butter. 38:30.000 --> 38:31.000 We do do other things. 38:31.000 --> 38:38.000 As you said, we teach access technology both in classes and other paid events that happen from time to time. 38:39.000 --> 38:54.000 We have a bi-weekly podcast, but audio is definitely our mainstay and when HumanWare found out about our Victor Reader Stream tutorial, we then began collaborating on multiple products with HumanWare. 38:54.000 --> 38:55.000 And for HumanWare. 38:55.000 --> 38:58.000 So we've done things on the Braillenote series. 38:58.000 --> 39:06.000 So two generations of BrailleNote Touch and the Touch Plus various brailliant displays as well all kinds of things. 39:06.000 --> 39:09.000 The StellarTrek and now the Stream 3. 39:09.000 --> 39:15.000 So it has been a long line of documentation that we have been so pleased to work with HumanWare. 39:15.000 --> 39:35.000 We're on creating to just help enhance the products that they're putting out by giving people, hopefully, really stress free instruction and a better understanding of how products work and allow them to follow along with us as we teach these products from the foundational concepts all the way up to more advanced concepts. 39:35.000 --> 39:42.000 So that is a very long way of answering your question, but I hope it does help in understanding a little bit about who we are and what we do. 39:42.000 --> 39:46.000 And we offer a lot of different audio, but we have a very special relationship with HumanWare. 39:46.000 --> 39:50.000 And we are, because we've been working with you guys for so long now, almost ten years. 39:50.000 --> 39:51.000 So it's crazy. 39:51.000 --> 39:52.000 It's incredible. 39:52.000 --> 39:57.000 We are so, so lucky to have you guys producing the professional tutorials that you do. 39:57.000 --> 40:02.000 And if we can take a look behind the scenes, I'm curious. 40:02.000 --> 40:11.000 You guys produce really, really comprehensive tutorials which are great for helping folks come to learn their technology from beginning to advanced. 40:12.000 --> 40:14.000 How do you prepare those tutorials? 40:14.000 --> 40:17.000 Do you take notes in Braille? Do you emboss them? 40:17.000 --> 40:19.000 Do you use a refreshablle 40:19.000 --> 40:19.000 Braille product? 40:19.000 --> 40:22.000 Just because braille and audio are so linked. 40:22.000 --> 40:26.000 And I know when I produce a tutorial, sometimes it's nice to have some notes 40:26.000 --> 40:30.000 I can refer to, so I'd love to know what. 40:30.000 --> 40:33.000 What is kind of your process for producing tutorials? 40:33.000 --> 40:40.000 Without a doubt, I could not produce a tutorial without some kind of outline, and they're usually very, very extensive. 40:40.000 --> 40:51.000 Oftentimes I will come up with a full table of contents first, and then I'll spend days and sometimes weeks wondering about the order and try to figure that out and how I'm going to put it together and how it's going to get created. 40:51.000 --> 40:56.000 And I really must have a framework for myself in order to start. 40:56.000 --> 41:03.000 And I kind of think of it from the place of a consumer, because I'm not just the person who's teaching this stuff, I use it all. 41:03.000 --> 41:08.000 So I want to think, you know, what's the easiest way for the majority of people to learn this? 41:08.000 --> 41:14.000 How can I be most helpful in creating a product that will be really accessible to the majority of people? 41:14.000 --> 41:18.000 And sometimes that means starting back with the very, very basics. 41:18.000 --> 41:21.000 What is it? Why do I care? What do I want it? 41:21.000 --> 41:22.000 And then that gets people in the door. 41:22.000 --> 41:36.000 So even if they haven't purchased something, that'll give them an idea of, hey, maybe this could work for me, or if they're brand new to it, maybe it'll help take some of the intimidation out of, oh, so I can do this, this and this. 41:36.000 --> 41:42.000 And now I have this hopefully friendly voice on the other end that can assist me in doing exactly that. 41:42.000 --> 41:45.000 So, yes, outline critical to me to make that happen. 41:45.000 --> 41:57.000 Braille display critical I use my brilliant BI40x to create my outlines and often sit there and as I said, play with those for a while to get those exactly as I want. 41:57.000 --> 42:01.000 Because the recording, of course, is only one part of this entire equation. 42:01.000 --> 42:06.000 There's a ton of research that goes into the back end as well, way before the recording starts. 42:06.000 --> 42:21.000 And then as you know, as someone who does recordings as well, the editing is the most massive undertaking, usually of the entire thing, because for every hour of recording, I might do three hours of editing because you mess up and you say things over it. 42:21.000 --> 42:22.000 Yes, absolutely. 42:22.000 --> 42:24.000 It's some things you just do not want in the recording. 42:24.000 --> 42:31.000 So, you know, I have to watch out about that and make sure that everything is really professionally produced. 42:31.000 --> 42:33.000 I don't want any cookie cutter. I don't want any filler. 42:33.000 --> 42:40.000 And we want to make sure that everything that we put out is both comprehensive but also concise for the listener. 42:40.000 --> 42:48.000 So yeah, there's a huge portion of this that goes on behind the scenes that is way more than just the recording that the user will ultimately end up seeing. 42:48.000 --> 42:50.000 There's a whole process. 42:50.000 --> 42:52.000 Hundreds of hours usually goes into every product. 42:52.000 --> 42:57.000 The process that you described is very similar to what I use as well. 42:57.000 --> 43:03.000 But to produce a final product that you could be proud of and that's really easy to follow. 43:03.000 --> 43:04.000 It is it is so worth it. 43:04.000 --> 43:07.000 And you guys do an excellent job. 43:07.000 --> 43:19.000 And speaking of Braille and all those lovely things, since we've just passed a convention and on the previous episode we're talking about Braille Challenge, just for fun. 43:19.000 --> 43:24.000 Have you ever been involved in any type of Braille challenge or braille contest? 43:24.000 --> 43:30.000 I have not, I have been involved in essay contests, but never one where Braille is how that is facilitated. 43:30.000 --> 43:32.000 So I've never done that. 43:32.000 --> 43:34.000 I would love to do that. That would be so fun for me. 43:34.000 --> 43:38.000 As somebody who's been reading Braille since I was a toddler, I would definitely enjoy that. 43:38.000 --> 43:44.000 I love Braille, it is a huge medium of communication for me, so I would absolutely love to do something like that. 43:44.000 --> 43:48.000 Well, we keep talking about bringing an adult Braille challenge back. 43:48.000 --> 43:58.000 So, you know, tell your friends, we need to get this going because I think that would just be so much fun to just, you know, in a friendly, competitive way, put our skills to the test. 43:58.000 --> 44:05.000 Because I think the skills change over time and we use Braille differently since when we were in school than now as adults. 44:05.000 --> 44:06.000 Most definitely. 44:06.000 --> 44:09.000 I mean, we do so much leisure reading now. 44:09.000 --> 44:13.000 And you know, we do notes for work and try and keep those concise for ourselves. 44:13.000 --> 44:18.000 And you're right, the skills change, the challenges change in how we're going to use it. 44:18.000 --> 44:27.000 And I think the most important thing for me is just having the ability now with a Braille display, to be able to write something, have it appear on that display, have it in braille. 44:27.000 --> 44:28.000 Because when I was a kid, you know, 44:28.000 --> 44:30.000 I didn't get my first braille display till I was 18. 44:30.000 --> 44:32.000 So I didn't have that. 44:32.000 --> 44:40.000 And knowing now that, you know, that is accessible to me and easy to grab and easy to use on a display, that's awesome. 44:40.000 --> 44:43.000 I mean, of course there's nothing that's going to replace that Perkins Brailler. 44:43.000 --> 44:51.000 It has its special place in all of our hearts, I'm sure, but being able to use it just any time accessible easily is awesome. 44:51.000 --> 44:52.000 So I'm up for any Braille challenge. 44:52.000 --> 44:55.000 Rachel, hit me up any time for Braille challenge. 44:55.000 --> 44:56.000 I love it, I love it. 44:56.000 --> 44:58.000 We'll have to make this happen. 44:58.000 --> 45:02.000 And oh my goodness, this this segment is just flying by. 45:02.000 --> 45:12.000 So as we as we wrap up and as a new it would can you tell folks again in case they they don't know where can they find you and what's the best way to get in touch? 45:12.000 --> 45:17.000 And if maybe someone's listening, who has an idea for a product and they say, you know what I would love? 45:17.000 --> 45:21.000 Kim and Chris may produce a tutorial or they have a client in mind. 45:21.000 --> 45:26.000 I'd really love to have Kim and Chris teach someone how to use a product. 45:26.000 --> 45:29.000 How can they get in touch with you and what's your process for that? 45:29.000 --> 45:32.000 You can absolutely get in touch with us. 45:32.000 --> 45:42.000 Our main website is Mysticaccess.com and I'll spell that it's mysticaccess.com that'll get you to our main site. 45:42.000 --> 45:46.000 I definitely recommend those of you who are brand new to us to check out our podcast. 45:46.000 --> 45:52.000 It comes out every other Tuesday and that is at MysticAccesspodcast.com. 45:52.000 --> 45:53.000 Super easy. 45:53.000 --> 46:01.000 Or you can ask any of your favorite voice assistants, or use any of your favorite podcasters to play the Mystic Access podcast. 46:01.000 --> 46:03.000 We're really super easy to find. 46:03.000 --> 46:07.000 If you want to get in touch with us, you want to talk to us, you're welcome to email us. And that's simple too. 46:07.000 --> 46:16.000 It's info@mysticaccess.com, and we're always looking for ideas for classes or what you'd like to see in a future product. 46:16.000 --> 46:19.000 Something like that. We would love to hear about that from you. 46:19.000 --> 46:22.000 Or just say hi, you know, if you like the podcast, we always love hearing that as well. 46:22.000 --> 46:24.000 So definitely get in touch with us. 46:24.000 --> 46:28.000 And also remember that we have tons of free downloads available. 46:28.000 --> 46:35.000 If you're brand new to us, you maybe you've listened to the podcast, you want to listen to something else before you commit to perhaps looking at products. 46:35.000 --> 46:37.000 Or maybe there's a purchase you want to make, but you can't really afford it right now. 46:37.000 --> 46:47.000 When you're waiting, check out our free downloads that's at MysticAccessdownloads.com, and you will find literally hundreds of hours of free goodies to tide you over in case you want to buy that product. 46:47.000 --> 46:52.000 So we're kind of everywhere, and here welcome to check us out however works best for you. 46:52.000 --> 46:54.000 Thanks a bunch Kim for coming on again. 46:54.000 --> 46:58.000 This is Kim and Chris with Mystic Access and go check them out. 46:58.000 --> 47:03.000 They are absolutely fantastic and we are so lucky to be their partners. 47:03.000 --> 47:06.000 So thanks a bunch Kim. Appreciate you. 47:06.000 --> 47:08.000 My pleasure. Rachel. Thank you for having me. 47:10.000 --> 47:18.000 Hi, it's David here, and welcome to a short demo of using the calculator on the Brailliant 47:18.000 --> 47:26.000 BI20x or BI40x bar display, of course, from HumanWare 47:26.000 --> 47:26.000 All right. 47:26.000 --> 47:31.000 So I'm currently sitting at the main menu of my brilliant BI40x. 47:31.000 --> 47:36.000 I'm going to go to the calculator by pressing a C for Calculator. 47:36.000 --> 47:39.000 And I'm going to press the enter key which is the dot 8. 47:40.000 --> 47:50.000 Now if it's the first time you've gone into the calculator since you've first turned it on, then it will remind you that you've got to use Computer braille. 47:51.000 --> 47:56.000 If it's the second session since you've turned it on, it reminds you about Computer braille. 47:57.000 --> 48:00.000 And remember, Computer braille is mainly two things. 48:00.000 --> 48:13.000 There is no number sign followed by two J for the numbers, and the numbers a to j or 1 to 0, you drop them down in the actual browse them to do the number. 48:13.000 --> 48:16.000 So they're all sort of lowercase ABCD. 48:16.000 --> 48:18.000 So for example no number sign. 48:18.000 --> 48:30.000 And then A rather than being dot one would be two two rather than being one and two and b would be dots two and three i.e. lowercase b etc.. 48:30.000 --> 48:34.000 And then of course your mathematical symbols are using computer braille. 48:35.000 --> 48:38.000 So I'm kind of sitting at the calculator, I've got the cursor on the display. 48:39.000 --> 48:43.000 And I want to remind myself how to actually use the calculator. 48:43.000 --> 48:47.000 So I'm going to press space and M for context menu. 48:47.000 --> 48:51.000 And of course M being dots one three and four. Equals. 48:52.000 --> 48:54.000 So that's the equals. 48:54.000 --> 48:57.000 That's when you press the press enter to get the result. 48:57.000 --> 49:01.000 I'm just going to press the spacebar to go through each of these options. 49:01.000 --> 49:05.000 So space clear space plus dots 356 okay. 49:05.000 --> 49:17.000 Space and dots 356 plus 346 plus is dots 346 minus dots 36, minus is dots three and six. 49:17.000 --> 49:19.000 Multiply dots 16. 49:19.000 --> 49:23.000 Multiply is dots one and six. 49:23.000 --> 49:26.000 Divide dots 34. 49:26.000 --> 49:38.000 Divide is dots three and four all the result backspace plus y copy result is the backspace key dot seven plus y one, three, four, five and six. 49:38.000 --> 49:42.000 Power backspace plus dots 45 power. 49:42.000 --> 49:44.000 And I'm not going to repeat the rest of these. 49:44.000 --> 49:48.000 But basically power is space plus dots four and five. 49:48.000 --> 49:50.000 When I press the spacebar just to read them out for the rest of them. 49:50.000 --> 49:57.000 Square root space plus dots 345 by space plus y Euler symbol. 49:59.000 --> 50:01.000 That was Euler symbol eight. 50:01.000 --> 50:02.000 Euler symbol. 50:02.000 --> 50:07.000 Factorial space plus dots 2,346. 50:07.000 --> 50:09.000 Dots 146. 50:09.000 --> 50:11.000 Back. Okay. 50:11.000 --> 50:16.000 And of course, if I press spacebar again equals I'm back to the top of the menu. 50:16.000 --> 50:16.000 All right. 50:16.000 --> 50:19.000 I'm going to press space and E to exit. 50:19.000 --> 50:22.000 So space and one and five. 50:22.000 --> 50:29.000 And I'm back to the blank braille display of course with the cursor on the left hand side. 50:30.000 --> 50:33.000 So let's just do an add an A minus just for this demo. 50:33.000 --> 50:36.000 So 1010. 50:36.000 --> 50:38.000 So of course that was dot two for one. 50:38.000 --> 50:46.000 And dots two five and six for zero plus which is dots one three and six plus. 50:46.000 --> 50:52.000 And then I'll do one zero again one zero and press it. Now. 50:52.000 --> 50:57.000 And the first time I press enter it's not going to say anything because I can type in another sum if I want. 50:57.000 --> 51:02.000 At the moment I'm gonna press enter again. 20 now it said 20, which is what I wanted. 51:03.000 --> 51:03.000 All right. 51:03.000 --> 51:06.000 So ten plus ten, funnily enough equals 20. 51:06.000 --> 51:09.000 I'm going to clear that with space three, five and six. 51:11.000 --> 51:14.000 And I won't say anything once I clear anything. 51:14.000 --> 51:16.000 All right. So let's do a minus. 51:16.000 --> 51:24.000 So I'm going to let's see 61 minus a dots three and six dash. 51:25.000 --> 51:29.000 And then I am going to put in eight. 51:31.000 --> 51:31.000 Eight. 51:31.000 --> 51:35.000 And that hit enter 53 which is 53. 51:36.000 --> 51:39.000 Cool and clear it again. 51:39.000 --> 51:45.000 And I'm back to a clear slate as so to speak on my braille display. 51:45.000 --> 51:49.000 Let me just show you one final example, just to remind you that you can just do more than one sum. 51:49.000 --> 51:58.000 So I am going to put in five plus plus five and I press enter 10. 51:58.000 --> 52:09.000 I'm going to do plus seven, seven, 17 plus which is 17 minus eight, eight, nine and so on. 52:09.000 --> 52:12.000 So in the clear that three, five and six the spacebar 52:13.000 --> 52:15.000 I'm going to press the home button, the front of the display terminal. 52:15.000 --> 52:23.000 And I'm back to the main menu on terminal mode ready to go again with a calculator or another application. 52:26.000 --> 52:29.000 All right everybody, welcome to the upcoming show segment. 52:29.000 --> 52:35.000 Interestingly enough for July August, we don't happen to have any upcoming shows. 52:35.000 --> 52:42.000 The convention season in North America has just concluded, and August is still summer in this part of the world. 52:42.000 --> 52:45.000 And of course, winter in other parts of the world. 52:45.000 --> 52:55.000 So school year has not yet kicked off here, and therefore our show presentations will be slowing down a little bit. 52:55.000 --> 53:04.000 But you can always check out our website at www.humanware.com to see what we have going on and come visit us any time. 53:04.000 --> 53:07.000 Also keep an ear out and an eye out. 53:07.000 --> 53:13.000 We will be back on the road in end of August and September as the school year starts up again. 53:13.000 --> 53:19.000 So definitely look for us out and about in a city or town or state or country near you. 53:19.000 --> 53:25.000 We hope you have a great summer slash winter and we will talk to you soon. 53:26.000 --> 53:29.000 If you have comments or suggestions, we'd love to hear from you. 53:29.000 --> 53:32.000 Please send them to podcast@humanware.com 53:33.000 --> 53:35.000 That's podcast@humanware.com 53:35.000 --> 53:38.000 Thanks so much for listening to See Things Differently. 53:38.000 --> 53:39.000 We'll see you next month.