Hello and welcome to Live like those. The Live. Live like the World Is Dying, the podcast that I always want to introduce, but I never do with like a hello and welcome to Live like the World is Dying. But I don't do that because that would be strange. This is your podcast for what feels like the end times. I am your host, Margaret Killjoy, and this today is a topic that has been requested possibly more than any other topic. I don't actually know. I no longer am the one who checks the emails. Maybe you all stopped asking for this, but I think you do because today, talk to strangers. Well, we're going to talk about talking to strangers, but first, here we are a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. And this is a podcast from another show on the network. The Final Straw is a weekly anarchist radio show. It's fucking awesome. And you're never going to hear me say fucking awesome on our show because we're FCC regulated. There's a black part of my heart that, that just flutters when you, when you talk like that
talk. Then more yelling. It's a weird sort of like, nice
thing in a way, but also can
get kind of crushing at times.
Thefinalstrawradio noblogs.org. Okay, and we're back. So my guest, what's your name and pronouns and your background in talking to strangers?
Totally. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm Prerna. I use they them pronouns. And I would consider myself maybe a pro social prepper of sorts. I really enjoy talking to strangers. Have been doing it all my life, I would say with a special emphasis on the past few years of post Covid kind of social strata, ecosystem building. I moved to a new city around three and a half years ago and it was a really exciting challenge of not really knowing anybody and so very much having to practice how to talk to strangers to build relationships and build community here.
So I actually don't remember if this is the first time I met you, but might have been one of the first times I met you. You were giving a workshop called something like how to talk to Strangers. And it's a thing that has come up, as I mentioned in the introduction, it's a thing that people have asked almost more than anything else. Because I think that because one of the things we talk about on the show is like, hey, it's really important to know your neighbors, for example, right? And everyone's like, but I don't know my neighbors. And how could you possibly learn your neighbors are if you don't already know them. So what brought you into teaching a workshop like that?
I think I was a little surprised by, as I kept entering into very, like, community spaces that I assumed to be pro social organizing spaces, you know, community ethers. And I felt like there was a lot of click energy almost. People seemed to really only talk to the people they knew, the people they had already previously associated with. And the more that I got to know people, even people that I perceived to be super confident or super social, the more that I learned. Social anxiety is everywhere. I like to make a joke that, like, the baddest bitches all have social anxiety. And I think it's very true. Like, most people I know are pretty terrified of going to a social space or ecosystem where they don't know anybody. And I always used to say that, like, my ideal party is where I know nobody except the person I invited me that invited me, because there's no stakes. Like, it's really like an opportunity to just be exactly who you want to be, show up as exactly who you've wanted to. And it's a desire and, I don't know, I guess an opportunity to connect. And so after being in a city and being a little bit disappointed almost in, like, the way a lot of people tended to socialize, it inspired me to kind of think through, well, maybe this is just something that we also need to practice and build skills for. I think oftentimes we think of skill building as such tangible things, right? How to make something, how to build this, how to learn this program. But social skills are as much of a muscle as anything else. And when you're coming from a global pandemic and a public health crisis where people weren't talking to many people for over a year, and then prior to that, you're also seeing just a complete destruction of a lot of social spaces, a lot of third spaces where people had the opportunity to connect and communicate with each other. It feels even more pressing to make it known that this is a muscle and you can practice. There's no shame in not knowing how to do this or not feeling super confident in it is something that we can learn together.
I love all of this and I love, okay, this idea that you were like, there's a problem. How can I systematize the solution to it? And, and, and I love it partly because I was like a whole ass adult before I finally really understood that social science is science. Right? And not just like a nice way of, you know, they weren't just like, being like, Like STEM isn't the only thing that matters. Like you actually can systematize ideas like skills like how to talk to strangers. And I love that. And I also, I don't love, but I acknowledge this idea that like, yeah, we're clicky as shit, right? And anywhere on the left, but I would say, especially the anti authoritarian left, you kind of can't be. Even though we're terrible at it, like all we do is click up, right? But if the whole idea is that we're like, oh no, we're going to have like a horizontal, decentralized society where we all make decisions together. Like, that doesn't mean like you and three are your friends, you know?
Exactly. And. Exactly. And it's also like pushing this muscle that everybody that you can talk to or get on with are exactly like you or share a lot of your values or ideas or principles. Like, building the muscle of how to talk to strangers allows you to build relationships with people that you wouldn't normally meet or be around. And that's actually so instrumental to building an ecosystem of being able to actually affect anything. Like when we talk about our neighbors and getting to know our neighbors, most of our neighbors probably don't share a lot of our values in politics. In fact, a lot of them probably would hear a lot of the stuff that like, at least I articulate in the community spaces I'm in and disagree. But there's a level of intimacy and knowing each other and having those relationships that allows you to like very slowly push people into the direction that I think a lot of us are hoping to build. You know, this anti authority, anti authoritarian horizontal world predicated on a lot more models of being able to do things autonomously and ourselves.
Well, I love that this right away gets to kind of one of the biggest questions because people have this, like, one, how would I talk to strangers? Is a big question. But also there's this kind of like, why would I talk to strangers? Strangers are bad. Like, and it, and a lot of it comes down to like, we've gotten really good at figuring out how people are fucked up, right? And I'm like, not mad at us about that. It's like really good that we've interrogated like every system of oppression, or at least the ones we're aware of now. I'm sure 20 years from now people are like, I can't believe you didn't talk about the following type of oppression. But like, we've gotten really good at talking about those things. But it seems like we then use that as like a reason not to talk to people. Right. Like, I don't want to talk to my neighbors because they might be Republicans or even I don't want to talk to my neighbors because they might be like, Democrats. Yeah, right. And how do you. And how do you navigate that? And if you're open to it, could. Would you talk about your own identity as relates to this kind of question? Because I think a lot of people, especially who are shy, are like, coming from one or more marginalized communities where they're like, well, I don't always feel safe and good talking to strangers.
For sure. For sure. Yeah. I think there's a lot of nuance behind who and how you're doing it. I would say to that first question of why is it so important is cause relationships are all we have. And it's really interesting being in the Midwest. I didn't grow up here. I grew up on the West Coast. I come from parents who didn't grow up in this country. And so coming to the Midwest, there's like this very, like, individualized or like, very like nuclear family rooted prepper culture a lot of people have where they're like, you know, something happens, like the electricity is going to go out, I need to go stockpile a bunch of resources and put them in my basement. Or I know people who like, have been been canning for like years to just have a stockpile in their basement. And it's always so funny and so interesting to me because I'm like, if I just mapped out all of my neighbors within a one mile radius, I just know in any type of crisis or any type of disaster, we would figure it out. Like, three years into living into the city, I feel really confident. I had my mom come visit me this past weekend. And everywhere we went, like just the local grocery store, the local coffee shop, I ran into somebody I knew and I was like, this is an amaz feeling of belonging and commitment. And I also. So I think about like, the why for me is also a level of like, I feel like I've spent my whole life and a lot of us probably resonate with this, searching for belonging. It's a really, really lonely world we live in. And so, like, getting to know your neighbors, seeing familiar faces, it's such a critical part of just being able to, like, feel a sense of community and neighborhood and belonging to. It's really hard sometimes to take the initiative to always actualize plans or commitments. And so having spaces or being around people where it's like, oh, we know each other That's a level of familiarity that just feels really good for the spirit and the soul. And then I think there's also a level of community resilience that comes from getting to know your neighbors. So I think a lot about this study that a friend told me about that they did at the Atlantic, it was studying a heat wave in Chicago in 1995. And someone who is living there also, like a geographic statistician, did some mapping because a lot of people died during this big heat wave in Chicago, where basically in 1995, it was the summer, it was very hot, A bunch of people turned on their ACs to try to cool off. And then the whole grid shuts down. And that becomes really dangerous for a lot of different people, especially older folks, disabled folks, folks reliant on electricity. And what they determined was class and income definitely played a role. Higher income communities typically lost less lives. But there was also this factor of neighborhood third spaces and neighborhood institutions and communities where there were more neighborhood institutions, a park, even like a bench on the corner that people frequented, they had less loss. And that was because people knew to check on and check on each other. You know, they know. They knew that, like, Dolores would always be sitting on the bench. And some. Somebody should go check in on Dolores and figure out if she's okay. She's a little bit older, she has a hard time with mobility issues. Maybe she needs a bag of ice. The why is like, it's so, you know, trifold to me. It's like the social and the personal. It's this broader community and desire for belonging. And then it's a survival mechanism, It's a resistance mechanism. And I think the other big thing that happens when you're thinking about talking to neighbors is so many people are so transient. They're like, why would I make the effort of getting to know my neighbors when I rent this space spot and I'm going to move next year? Like, there's no point in getting to know these people. And that's what I've really appreciated about living in the city. I do. There's a level of like, it's a very. It's a very small city. You'll get to run into people and see people. Even if, like, you were their neighbor and now you're not. Or like last week I was on a zoom call with people who used to be neighbors and now live in totally different cities. So I just think there's something really beautiful about belonging and relationship building.
No, I like that I hadn't actually put together how much that feeling of when you live in a place long enough and are part of a even a scene, even if it's not your physical immediate neighbors. Although I'm really a big fan of knowing your physical immediate neighbors, even being part of a scene, being like, oh, I went out to a restaurant when my parents came to visit me when I was living in Asheville, North Carolina. We went out to the restaurant and I, like, knew the people at the table next to me, you know?
Yes.
And it just looks like it almost felt like a flex just being like, I got friends, you know, and it is. It feels like a flex to have friends. In this, like, society that is so increasingly isolated. I think about a lot about how activism and whatever. However people try and do their activism, one of the main reasons that people actually stick to it and even join it is for a sense of community, even if it's not conscious. And so it makes sense to me that this is actually an essential skill, even from an activist point of view or a preparedness point of view. We need to know how to talk to each other and we need to know how to bring people in. There's this thing that I've been toying with as an idea that what our movement needs is not gatekeepers, but ushers. We need people to help people figure out where they belong in a movement and, like, how to be engaged rather than being like, oh, I don't know, you, like, didn't immediately gender that person correctly and you said you were sorry, but, like, I don't know, you know?
Yep. Yeah, I totally agree. I often make a joke with some of my people, which is like, I'm really trying to swagify, like my local info shop. And I think what I mean by that is, like, make this place a little more, like, irresistible socially. Because that is, like, a lot of the ways that people are drawn to things in different ways. I think sometimes, especially in a lot of, like, the contemporary anarcho or very contemporary politically defined spaces I'm in, there's a lot of desire to really project a certain way, which can oftentimes feel a little like isolating or daunting for people. I've been in, like, organizing spaces for most of my, like, sentient adult life. And I think a lot about how my mom recently, she just became an empty nester. And so she was looking for new ways to get involved, meet people. She had some extra time on her hands, and so she joins Food Not Bombs in California. It's awesome, right?
Yeah.
And it's based out of, like, this peace and justice center that I kind of got my foot in when I first started, like, learning a little bit more about radical movement organizing and how to, you know, just build better institutions for sovereignty. And so she's going to Food Not Bombs and she's trying to do food prep and food share and she's, she's like, calling me on the phone and she's like, prayer. And I just don't belong here. Like, I just. Nobody seems to, like, really want to talk to me and people kind of just tell me that I'm doing things wrong. And I'm just trying. And I'm like, this is a woman who can cook a meal for 50 people in three hours. Like, I'm like, you are skilled, mom. Like, you know how to do this and you make bomb ass food. And so like, to like, I just kind of shared a level of disappointment with her of like, it's a bummer that people aren't trying to talk to you and recruit you, because if I was in that collective, I would immediately have been like, hey, Ritu, can we go on a walk? I would love to, like, get to know you more. I would love to learn why you're here. The other thing is, like, my mom is someone who has a level of, like, wealth. Like, she has, like, really developed and spent time living in the bay. And so it's like being able to talk to strangers, being able to talk to folks who like, you might perceive as, like, liberal is, like, so critical in being able to do a level of resource redistribution too. You know, without shame, without judgment, but rather like, hey, like, this person that we know who's been coming to these shares is like, really struggling. Do you have a couple extra bucks to throw down for their rent this month? And, you know, my mom's talked about wanting to buy a new rice cooker for the crew and like, wanting to, like, get certain things to. To make their process a little more streamlined and efficient. And it's such a bummer because she's felt like she needs to take a break from going there because she's just like, not able to connect with anybody and feels like she doesn't belong there.
I think about this a lot. I think about how, like, I remember being at a books to prisoners program or not program, but, you know, event and, you know, and like, and I'm sitting next to a guy who's just like, really excited to write people in prison because he's actually more from a community where more of his friends are in prison. You know?
Yeah.
And like. And people are kind of like, oh, hey. You know, they're at the oh, hey level of getting to know him.
Yep.
And then he doesn't come back, and you're like, oh, I wonder why I didn't come back. And I was there, too. I do a little bit of, like, well, I'm just passing through, so I'm not the organizer. And, like. And that's, like, getting myself off the hook more than I should. And I think that the longer you're in a space, the more you should feel like, no, I'm going to be someone who is going to talk with new people, bring them in. And anyone who, like, looking subcultural is such an interesting question in all of this. Right. Because when you look subcultural and everyone looks subcultural in one way, and then you show up and you don't look subcultural in the same way, you're going to naturally feel less welcome. And I think the more subcultural looking your space is probably the more work you need to do to. To help people feel comfortable. But it should be built in because, like, a thing that I've always believed because I look subcultural. Shit. And kind of always have. And I did well before I had my politics. So I always felt like I'd be kind of lying if I stopped wearing all black, because I've been wearing all black since I was a goth. Like, you know, but by looking really weird, you don't have to judge people ever again. Because the people who are judgmental won't talk to you because you look weird.
Yeah.
So if, like, a normie and I guess air quotes, anytime I say a word like that talks to me, and I'm like, you know, wearing a punk vest and a skirt and don't pass for shit or whatever. They're chill.
Yeah.
Like, it's fine. They had to pass through a filter, literally, just to talk to me. So fudge me if I'm also judgmental, you know?
Totally. Totally. And I think, like, the more you do it, the more you realize that everybody is just. Is just very worried about their own perception. Like, there's so much going on internally. There's a lot of, like, we just grow up with a lot of shame socialized onto us. It's like, it's actually very scary to think about, like, how much of the way people oftentimes move is out of, like, shame or fear of, like, being perceived or being judged in a certain way. And I think that reframe is really helpful of, like, oh, you know, whatever. Judgment or feelings I'm feeling towards myself, that's also probably what this other person is feeling towards themselves. And so like, if I'm just able to take that reframe and be like, nah, I'm actually going to challenge this, you know, dominant culture that tells us not to talk to people that might be different from us, that tells us to just be individuals who are like isolated. Then I get to like invite people into that with me and build a level of like fearlessness together, which I think is really beautiful.
Yeah, it's so interesting because we have like so many politics about breaking down walls, but this idea of how to talk to strangers is literally about breaking down one of the most, one of the most structural walls that keeps society alienated. And also like just to get as over dramatic as I can with this builds fascism. Fascism is built out of walls between communities of people, is built out of nationalism. It is built out of like, I've got my crew and I fucking hate everyone else or I'm afraid of everyone else. Which is really what walls are for, is fear.
Yeah, yeah. I like to ask people, kind of when I start kind of these conversations or these workshops, like, what is your relationship to talking to strangers? What comes up? And so I'm curious for yourself, like, what is your relationship to talking to strangers? What comes up for you when you kind of engage in that for the first time with someone?
I had this advantage where I hitchhiked a lot when I was like 19 to 25, I don't know, whenever I finally got enough money for a minivan and then I stopped talking to strangers because I had a minivan that I traveled in and lived in. But I, it was a survival skill. And so on some level, I've always seen talking to strangers as a survival skill because you get in someone's car and your goal here, your number one goal is to not get murdered. Your number two goal is to get where you're going. And your number three goal, if you're being really honest, is to have them like you so much that they take you a little bit further, buy you dinner, give you 20 bucks. And so some of it was even kind of, and I'm not proud of this, but I'm not unproud of it. Some of it was even kind of self serving. Right. Like, you know, I would, I would think about how do you get someone to like you?
Yeah.
And yes, the main way I found was you let them talk about what they care about.
Exactly.
And you either go like, oh, I know a Little bit about that too, or you'd be like, I don't know anything about baseball. Tell me about baseball. You mean there's how many innings, you know?
Totally, totally. And that's like, it's the same stuff, like for people who come from any type of like organizing background, like, if you've ever been paid or unpaid to be a canvasser, my prayer is my glory to you. That is not light work, but a lot of what they train you is like a good Canvasser is doing 70 or 80% of the conversation just listening. And the 20 to 30% that you're talking, you're just asking questions. And it's kind of rooted in this tactic of like deeper canvassing too. Of like, try to spend 20 minutes talking to somebody as opposed to like a two minute conversation where they feel really shut down. And you know, that can look like a lot of different things. The conventional thing of like stopping someone outside a grocery store, another social establishment, or just over time building containers with people, you know, so going to your local library and talking to the librarian a couple times about something, or you see a flyer and someone standing next to it and maybe you have questions about how that works and how that goes. And it is really like a likability science too, of people really enjoy talking about themselves. I think it also roots back into the like, seeking belonging. Like, people want to feel like they belong somewhere and it's like showing interest in what they are excited about or interested in is like cultivating a shared sense of belonging, of, okay, cool, now we all, or now we both know these things, are excited to talk about these things. And I also find that like, asking questions helps release some of the pressure of like, oh, I need, I need to figure out something to say now, right now, like, oh my God, I just asked them something and they said something and now I don't know what to say. And it's like, oh, you can just take a second to think about a question. I also love to do like a very honest, like you have like a little back pocket of like really weird questions that you can vibe out if it's appropriate to ask people. For example, a lot of my, A lot of the work that I like to do is gather people. And so sometimes when you're gathering people, it's really helpful to like begin a gathering by asking folks to check in and share how they're doing, introduce themselves, but also maybe give them a couple questions to like introduce each other with. And so I like to, you know, straight off the bat, ask like, when was the last time you peed yourself? You know, or something really wild. Like, you know, when was, you know, if you had to fight like 100 horse sized ducks or one duck sized horse. No, wait, one horse sized duck or 100 duck sized horses, what would you rather fight? You know, so kind of like personal sometimes, but also not super personal. Just like fun questions to kind of get people ideating, get people thinking. I think a lot of the time we get stuck that small talk has to be like, how are you? What do you think of the weather? What were you up to? And sometimes it can be stuff that's just kind of weird, just kind of crazy. And a lot of people can tend to be really into it, depending on, you know, what kinds of spaces you're in. I also find that it can be really, really helpful to like kind of talking about like presentation and performance, like really commit to a good accessory, whether that is like a good tattoo, a good piercing. Like, I really actually feel like that's a big game changer. And one of my dear friends, she has this analogy, she's like, there are people who are cool and there are people who have really, really good chat. And the people who are cool let their kind of like coolness, whether that's through like their aesthetics or their performance or their art, speak for them. And that's like an invitation for the people who are chatters to come chat them up and be like, wow, I love this thing that you created. Or wow, I love this jewelry that you're wearing. Like, tell me more about it. And it's just, it's really awesome to get to love on people too. Like, I think that's something else that we forget is like, you can love on a stranger too. Like, I love what you're doing here, or oh, your car is so cute. Or oh, I love your dog. Tell me about your dog. People love to talk about their dogs.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Okay. Coolness is a, is a good and interesting part of this to me.
Yeah.
Because I think about to use punks, which I know better than the average that I know about, than a lot of other subcultures. Punks are outcasts who have declared themselves cool. Right. And they've done it for long enough that they've pulled it off. People believe punks are cool now. Not necessarily in a way where people want to be punks or they're sometimes intimidated by punks. Right. Which we, we kind of do on purpose. Right. Like we're literally spiky sometimes, you know, and it it works like I was having a conversation the other day with someone who was like, often, often homeless, you know, trans person who is like, I throw on my leather jacket and I feel like I can handle the world, you know, I feel like people aren't going to fuck with me as much. And I learned this too, right? Like I was always a like picked on, beat up kid. And then at some point I was like, oh, I'm scary to people, right? And that was really useful to have that level of spikiness. And I think a lot of cultures and subcultures have people whose like style is like cool and kind of intimidating and not necessarily physically intimidating. Right? Like really well put together. Like, well actually a lot of high femmes are physically intimidating, but like really well put together high femme look is really intimidating. Right?
Yeah.
And so it's cool. But I find that if you look unapproachable the more you are approachable or the more you approach people, that is like another way to connect with people is like, I've realized it behooves me often to be the starter of conversations because I look hard to approach and, and that that's what I keep thinking about with coolness. Like, because like I was thinking about I have a friend, sorry, I have a friend who even I end up being like, that person's just too cool. And like when I don't hear from for a while, I'm like, it's because they fucking hate me. Because they're so cool. They're like walking around and they're just attractive and they're very cool, you know, and they always have like the hottest take to clearly. And then I, as soon as I hang out with them, I'm like, oh, that person thinks I'm fine, you know, and then I'm like get the like, aura of. And I don't love this about myself or coolness, but it's like a real dynamic.
Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think like kind of, you know, extending that analogy. It's like you'll hang out with them and they'll be like, oh, I've just, I've been a little low recently, or oh, I've just been really busy recently. And you're like, oh yeah, it's actually like not about me at all. And I think that that, yeah, it speaks to like, you know, those voices in our head that tell us certain things that are, aren't true. And I think that when you say like, it behooves you to talk to people first. What is Their reaction oftentimes.
I mean, I guess it depends, right? Like if I'm asking someone for money on the street, which I haven't had to do in a very long time, but like, that's going to be not very good when I approach them.
Right, Right.
But there is. Okay, but I think, I think to what I suspect you're. You're very cleverly asked question to have me provide the answer as we talk about using this exact process is that it by and large works, right? Because I have nervousness to talk to people, but other people have nervousness to talk to. And like, most of the time, most social connections, like, work enough, you know, Like, I do. Like, I'm the only one who has social anxiety in the world, but, you know, I will like, find myself like after a conversation being like, ah, I probably, probably shouldn't have said that, you know, but I've. But I find whenever, okay, especially when I used to drink, go to a party or whatever, get drunk, talk with lots of people. And then the next day I'm like, it's like a social hangover where I'm like, oh, fuck, I said this thing to that person. Like, oh, I'm never gonna recover from that. This is the worst. And so I'll like, call them and apologize or text them and apologize. And then what's funny is that it's almost never what I think. Like, most of the time they're like, I literally didn't notice you did anything awkward. Or they're like, margaret, that's not the thing you said. That is the reason I'm mad at you. I'm mad at you about this other thing you said.
Totally. Like, you don't know until you ask.
Yeah, yeah, totally. What does your social anxiety look like? Because you said everyone has social anxiety and it looks different for everybody.
Yeah, that's a great question. I am someone who I'm like, every. Every couple months at least. Like, I'm like, I need to practice my extrovert muscle. Because, like, even that, you know, I described earlier, like, my ideal social situation is going to a party where I know almost no one. Sometimes that still makes me nervous. You know, it's like, oh, like, what if I'm just like standing in the corner awkwardly? What if it, like, what if I look super weird? I'm also someone who I feel very committed to not be on my cell phone when I'm out at a social gathering. And so a lot of the times what I'll see is like, if people are like, sitting alone or you know, by themselves. Like, they'll just be on their phone. It'll seem like they're consumed. And I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. I really want to intentionally be here and be social. And so, yeah, I have those voices in my head too that are like, oh, like you're just going to be alone. It's going to be weird. It's going to be awkward. I have social anxiety around, like, oh, all my friends are hanging out without me and it's because I did something weird or said something weird.
And I think that's true in your case.
Yeah.
That I've been meaning to tell you.
Oh. And honestly, I feel okay with that because I'm like, I'm pretty pro exclusion to an extent too. You know, like when we talk about talking to strangers, it's really important to me that people know that I know internally. Like, not all of these strangers are going to be my friend. I might actually end up, like, hating some of these people. Or I could spend a lot of time trying to build a relationship with someone and they're just not gonna want a relationship with me the way I want a relationship. And like, that is okay. Because the most important thing is to try and like, ultimately, like, you do it enough times and it will work. You will find people who feel compatible, who feel relationally oriented in the same way, things like that. But yeah, I'm a really firm believer that when I'm anxious about something or afraid of something, it's in part because I don't feel prepared or don't feel like I have. I'm setting myself up for it. Well. And so sometimes what that looks like is I really want to go to something, but I'm just exhausted and I know I have something else to do the next day, or I just been running on fumes for a while. And so it does really look like all my friends are gonna hang out without me. And I was invited, but I just can't go. It also looks like sometimes I really wanna go to this event and I'm scared and I'm just gonna give myself a pep talk and I'm gonna go and maybe I'll have like. Sometimes it's like, I know sometimes people talk about, like, liquid courage. Sometimes it's helpful to drink. I find that to be true sometimes. And sometimes it can actually make things worse. But I think it's always helpful.
It diminishing returns quickly.
Totally. Totally. I think it's always helpful to have like a little ritual, like, maybe you Play some music. Maybe you call someone you love, maybe you've like recorded a voice memo for yourself and you're like, hey, like, this is just your little pep talk that you got this. You can do this. And maybe it's gonna be a little bit weird, or maybe it does end up being really awkward and then you can just leave. And the coolest part about going to a party where you know absolutely no one is, even if you're really fucking weird, you. You don't know any of these people. So it doesn't actually really matter. The stakes are actually really, really low here. And more than anything, it's just like people don't host. In my opinion, people don't host enough gatherings, like, just as a society anymore, you know, like there's not. I went to go hang out with my bestie, she's half Puerto Rican, half Ecuadorian in Connecticut last month. She had a birthday party, then Easter brunch the next day, and then her little sister Skinceanera, and her family was just partying the whole time. It was beautiful. It was an amazing gathering. They had a bunch of family together and I was like, oh, I really want to seize this social opportunity of getting together because I actually don't feel like it's super common. And so I would also kind of offer that frame of like someone's inviting you to a birthday party or a gathering. And you know, those things don't happen all the time. So it's like a privilege and an opportunity to get to go and show up for someone. And throwing a party is honestly like a really scary thing because it's like the, you know, the little eight year old inside of you that's like, oh my God, I'm throwing my birthday and nobody's gonna show up and it's just gonna be me and a couple adults and it's gonna be awkward and everyone's gonna talk about it. And so to be able to show up to different types of gatherings is really important, even if you feel like you don't know anybody or it's gonna be a little weird. And I say that as I'm also like pep talking myself into going to someone's birthday tomorrow who I don't know 100% super well, but who invited me and who I really enjoy. And I'm like, I don't actually know. I'll probably know people because I live in a city where everybody fucking knows everybody. But, you know, I don't actually know that to be true. And I'm not going to RSVP on partiful because fuck partiful. I don't want to subscribe to surveillance technology. I'm actually just going to let myself be surprised and see who's going to be there. So just to say like, even your most pro social preppers get scared and you know, we're in it together like that fear is something for us to collectively hold and then kind of like do something about and work against.
Yeah, I like something that you were saying earlier about extrovert muscle because I think that, because I'm sure there's modern social science about this that knows more than I do, but it seems like the introvert extrovert dichotomy is like a garbage one that does us a massive disservice.
Yep.
And I say that as like functionally an introvert. Right. But, but I'm so aware of, I think that everyone has my theory. Everyone has both batteries and both batteries need to charge and discharge. And so if I haven't socialized in a long enough time, I need to go socialize. And if I haven't been alone for long enough time, I need to go be alone. And I either through I don't know whether it's socialization or lack of socialization, I need more time alone and less time socializing than other people. But I need both. And like also muscles get stronger from exercising. And I like how you're pointing out that all of us are kind of coming in from like everyone's still recovering from 2020. And then like I threw on top of roughly like five years, self imposed exile on top of that. And so I've been struggling a lot with it, but, but it's like my struggle is that I'm like, well, it makes me less want to. Yeah, right. But then when I'm really in it, I remember that this is like kind of what we're alive to do is just sit in the sun with our friends or people we can kind of like. And other people we hate and other people we really like.
Yeah.
And like talk shit and eat food, you know, like, like that's actually what the human animal wants to do all the time.
Exactly, exactly. And I think it's like. Yeah, I just, I really appreciated getting to frame it as a muscle because I think the other big assumption is like people, people assume it's something you're born with or just something you have. And it was really fun like getting to introduce people to my parents just through my life because my parents are both pretty like introverted people or like they would both Call themselves very shy. And so people are always like, well, Prerna, how did you get like this? And it's like, I worked at it. I worked at it. I did not like being alone, like, during COVID or even, like. I would describe a lot of my early childhood experiences as just, like, not feeling a ton of belonging. And I was like, I know that, you know, my individualized, exceptional self or whatever, you know, your parents tell you as, like, a comfort mechanism is probably maybe a little bit true. But also, like, there are people who I will connect with, who are around me. There's so many people in this world. I just have to put in a little bit more work to find them. And I think what's really cool and special is, like, I really feel like the fruits of that labor more so year after year. It's really beautiful what having a lot of relationships can do and empower you to do. And this whole idea of, like, oh, I don't have the energy or the spoons to hang out with people is real. I don't want to invalidate that. But also, if you are able to push past that a little bit, you get to, like, over time, build relationships with people where it takes less and less energy for you to be around them, and you're able to be held by them in a way that, like, emboldens you to be able to do more things, to do the things you're excited about, to have more energy. Like, I have. I have a really, really beautiful, like, living situation where I get to live with a lot of friends. And so, like, a lot of the intimacy that we've developed over time has led to, like, you never have to take an Uber to the airport. If you're sick, someone's gonna come bring you soup. You're not actually having to, like, buy soup. If you need something, like, someone can help you get a ride to get there or pick it up for you. And so it's also a level of, like, countering these systems of domination that tell you, like, oh, you need to, like, outsource this service. Oh, you need to, like, pay for this thing. Oh, you need to, like, take time by yourself and be on media to, like, recharge, when in reality, like, you can do this. You can build these relationships and, like, create conditions of your life that feel better.
There's, like, 8,000 things in that that I mostly want to think about. I will say, of course, this is all true for other people. I can't make other people do things for me, because that would be a burden but everyone else isn't a burden.
Exactly. You can show up for people all the time, but you can never ask them to do anything for you, because that would just. That would be so crazy to like.
Yeah, it'd be fucked up. Maybe someone do things for me.
Yes.
Yeah. No, I was thinking about it. I was like, I've only had two birthday parties as an adult, and they were at my 30th and 40th, you know? And, like, just literally, I'm like, well, I can't do something that's about me. Like, why would I do something about me? Which is funny, because my dream social environment. As someone who I've been calling myself an outgoing introvert, I'm really good at, like, I'm a social sprinter. Put me in the middle of the. I want to perform. I want a table. I want to do something where I'm talking to people, and there's a reason why I'm there. And everyone knows who I am because I'm the one who. Even if I'm just, like, in the crappy opening band or whatever, or I'm, like, behind the table doing a thing, it doesn't have to be. It's not that I have to be the star, but I need to have the reason, right? And then I, like, crash out, and then I'm, like, done, you know? And. And I think it's weirdly similar to the I don't want to know anybody.
Yeah.
You know, I like this thing. I like what you're saying about, like, committing to not being on your devices at parties. I think, unfortunately, like, not being on devices is, like, often just the answer to a better world. Yeah.
Yeah. I think also the other big thing that I think is really helpful when we think about this stuff is time and how important time is for things. How to talk to a stranger becomes a lot easier when it's someone you've seen at the gym for the past three weeks or someone that you see on your block a couple times or someone. Someone you've seen at a couple events. It's like, oh, hey. Like, there's a level of familiarity here. And there's also a level of, like, oh, cool. Like, we might see each other again. Like, there's no pressure to actually, like, do this. And it's just so wild to me that we live in a culture where people are so comfortable, like, going on an app and meeting up with someone that they've never met and, like, maybe having sex, but you can't talk to your neighbor. Like, that's Just such an interesting relationship to things too. And it makes me think a lot about like what we're told to value relationally and what we're told we need relationally as well. Not to say like this is always how it happens, but I always advocate for talking to strangers because everybody in, in your life, probably everybody in my life besides my family, was a stranger at one point, you know, and it's like the only way to like really build these relationships that nourish us are to talk to strangers because there's like a possibility that they become someone like so entangled and, you know, beautiful in your life.
Yeah. And something that you said earlier about like not everyone you talk to is like, not everyone's a keeper. Right?
Yeah.
And like one of the reasons I'm like talk to your actual neighbors, like the people who live on either side of you or wherever up and down from you. And part of it is like so you can rely on each other in a crisis, but also so you can know who you're not relying on in a crisis. You know, like the people that you're like, oh no, that person's actually fucked up and scary. You don't know that unless you've kind of gotten a little close enough to figure out that they're fucked up and scary, you know?
Totally. Yeah. Like I have a great example. I live in a side by side duplex. The other people who live in our side by side duplex. When I first moved here, you know, I liked to smoke weed. I saw like an older man sm, so I was like, hey, let's have a smoke together. We chatted a little, it was really nice. And then he just proceeded to just keep hitting on me and my roommates. And this is like a 60 year old man. And so I had to be like, clear, like I don't like this, I don't appreciate this. And you know, we can still say hi. Like sometimes I give him bread or you know, we still chat about different things. I really like his nephews that he lives with and his sister is like relatively cool. And I don't know, I think it's like sometimes it's scary to talk to strangers because you don't actually know what the outcome will be. And it's not always pleasant. Like I've talked to a number of people most of the time who are kind of misogynistic or will say something about me presenting as kind of like a young femme woman. I imagine that like risk or that fear that you had kind of brought up a Little bit earlier, too. Also augments depending on, like, the different identities you hold and like, not being sure what people are say or what is a safe saying space. And so, like, I think it's really important to trust your intuition, too, and also, like, trust your ability to. To say no and hold your boundaries. And sometimes that becomes easier when you have a buddy or you have a friend. Like, nobody's telling you to go meet a bunch of strangers when you're out at night by yourself. But, you know, there's different muscles and ways that we can push it. Maybe it's starting at, like. I feel like the local library is typically always a space where a lot of people will feel relatively comfortable. Your local info shop or community space. I feel like skating meetups are typically pretty chill and easy to be around. Gardening stuff, seed swaps. I've met some really dear friends at community gardens, and so I think there's also a level of can't speak for everybody, especially folks in more conservative rural contexts, because I've only really ever lived in urban settings and urban life. But I do think there's, like, ways to also do the risk assessment. And sometimes you end up in situations that don't feel good and you have to, like, hold yourself to say no or hold yourself to be like, this is not okay, and I don't want to be treated like this.
Yeah, I think holding your boundaries is the other. That's the. The other key of it. Right? Because, like. But weirdly, holding boundaries doesn't necessarily shut things down. And in a weird way, even if you're like a people pleaser, which I would never be, no one likes a people pleaser, so I'm definitely not, because that would make people unhappy. But, like. But holding boundaries, even, like, if you're thinking strategically, doesn't make people like you less. Like, it kind of makes them respect you more. This is like a. I'm generalizing here. But like, when you're kind of. Because when someone's like, hey, do this thing for me. And you're like, I'm not actually going to do that thing for you.
Yeah.
Then they're like, oh, this person's like my peer.
Yeah.
Right. And I think that that's. Is the other side of it is if you. If we just teach, just talk to strangers, that could probably go really bad. But talk to strangers with good boundaries and use it to figure out. Yeah, I really like that when you're talking about this neighbor, right, where you're like, you didn't. It's not a Binary of like, good, bad. Right. You're like, oh, this is a person that I can give bread to and hang out with his nephews, but like, not a person that I'm going to like, hang out with one on one. That's already really been determined. But like, I don't know, as an earthquake, you might be able to help each other, you know, because you, because you know where each other are.
Yeah, exactly. Like, I do really think that we have a tendency to like, binarize people as well. Of like, oh, this person is cool and good, this person's weird, this person makes me feel uncomfortable. And I, I think, yeah, it's, it's really, really. It's a skill too. I would say it's also a muscle because I always think about, like, I love when people in my life say no to me. That just makes their yeses so much more earnest and authentic. Yeah. And I wanna, I, I ask a lot of people, I show up for people really, really well. To me, that's a big part of just how I want to relationally orient myself is I want to show up for people so good that they feel like, supported and able to do whatever they want. And so there's a level of sometimes like a desire and expectation for people to also show up for me like that. And it doesn't always mean that they can or have to. There's also times when, like, you have to show up for people and they're not able to show up for you in the same way. And that's fine because you have more to give at that moment. You have more time, space, energy, money, whatever it is. It's not a charity thing. It's a celestial ledger. Is always the way I like to think about it. Right. Is like, when we're in relationship for a long time, there might be a period where I'm washing more of your dishes or I am initiating more of our plans because I have more energy, I have more time, I have a better job. But maybe there's a time in like a year or two where I'm doing, I'm having a really hard time. Maybe someone in my life has passed away. I'm feeling really shut down. And so that's like an opening or an opportunity for people to get to show up for you more honestly and concretely too. So I think when you talk to strangers, having these very clear boundaries and almost no expectations can really be helpful because it's like, I know how to advocate for myself. I know how to say no. I know how to Walk away. That's actually something that I also really wanted to talk about today because I remember I went to go visit a friend who was studying abroad a couple years ago, and where she was living was five hours ahead of where our time zone was, where a lot of our friends were. And she was having this issue where people would be calling her at like 8pm, 9pm her time, wanting to talk for many hours. And she was like, I need to go to bed. Like, I can't keep living these two lives. And so we literally brainstormed and wrote down together different reasons for why she could say, like, no, I, I can't actually, like, talk to you for this long, or I need to hang up the phone. And so I think it's also helpful to think about that when you're talking to strangers. Like, here are some questions you can ask. Here are some curiosities you might have of people. And then also, like, if things get weird, here are some very clear one liners you can give. Oh, that comment made me uncomfortable. I'm gonna leave now. Or maybe something a little bit simpler like, oh, my mom's calling me, I need to go pick up the phone, I'm gonna walk away. But, like, having some very easy ins and then also some very easy outs can kind of also help remove some of the pressure and the stakes that sometimes come or feel really overwhelming with this idea of like talking to someone you don't know at all.
There's so many things I want to ask you about, but we're already at almost an hour. One thing that I wrote down, what I do when I'm interviewing people, I just take notes of like, they're like little sentence fragments that sometimes are very awkward to interject in the conversation so that I can then think about later being like, oh, that was awkward. But don't worry, it's not like tens of thousands of people listen to it, so no one will ever know. But one of the things I was writing down is kind of jumping back in the conversation. Talking to strangers is a really big important part of it. But one of the things I'm actually really excited that came up from talking to you is about making our spaces more inclusive. Because I would say that of our listeners, I would say that some of our listeners are trying to figure out how to get into social spaces, and some of our listeners are trying to figure out how to grow their social spaces, especially from an activist or anarchist or community center point of view. And so I think that that's such an important part of it that you've provided so much about is like, how do we welcome people in? And there was a trick that I learned at nerd conventions because if you ever want to feel good at socializing, go to like a science fiction convention. I'm not trying to be rude to my fellow nerds, but one of the things I spent years tabling, especially at steampunk conventions, and I was like, oh, I. My superpower is that I very good at socializing in short sprints, you know.
Yes.
And but what I realized, there's actually whole culture and like tools that people have developed. People who are like, don't see themselves as good at socializing have developed to create this social environment that's very positive for people. And one of the simplest things in the world is that if you're in a, a big party or a convention or some space where there's a lot of people and you have a group of people that's talking and someone's hovering right outside of it, you just literally look at them open up the circle and have them come in so they're now standing equidistant even if they never say a word in that circle. And I think that metaphorically that is a thing that we should be looking to do. And it doesn't mean that you're going to then become best friends with that person or organize with that person. But like that's now a space by which you can, you can figure out whether you're going to become friends with this person.
Totally. I love that analogy, I love that action, I love that practice. I think we've all been in a point at different points where we're like outside the circle and we're wanting people to open it up. And so like to have that opportunity to be inside the circle and get to open it is also just like showing the other people in the circle like, hey, this is like a muscle we need to build and a practice we need to have. And especially from an organizing, from an anarchist, from an anti authoritarian perspective, there is just no way we're going to be able to build mass working class power in the US if we can't talk to people that are different from us. Like I will say this time and time and time again and it's like, it's very slow work, like trying to get somebody to believe something you believe in when they've grown up and we're socialized in a completely different way and to just assum after reading one zine, they're gonna get it. That's really audacious of you. Like, that's actually not how that works. Like, we have to be in this for the long game. And I think about that a lot when it comes to, like, talking to strangers, talking to people, like, bringing people in. Like, if our movement spaces are only reflective of, like, one group of people, one identity, one shared interest, one shared age group, we're not organizing well. We're really not. And it's like this desire to build multiracial, multigeneral spaces. Like, we actually have to do the work to make it happen. It's not just about creating better flyers or advertising better on Instagram. It's about doing the work of meeting people and bringing people in. I often see, like, organizing and, like, my role as someone who is interested in creating space and creating infrastructure as being the bigger person most of the time. Right. And like, when I say being the bigger person, it's like, maybe I'm coming to the meeting doing a little bit more prep work. Maybe I'm coming to the meeting ready to take on a note taking or facilitation responsibility, because I see that as duty for my collective. Maybe it's my role to, like, chat with someone one on one after the meeting and let them know, like, hey, I really appreciated what you had to say. And I also need you to know that half of the meeting was spent just hearing you talk. And that makes it really, really hard for other people to say anything. And you can do that to a stranger. You can give a stranger who you're in, like, a community space with that kind of loving feedback. Whether or not they can hold it, that's a completely different question. But I really do think, like, the only way for us to be able to build any type of resilient infrastructure that actually challenges the state is to be able to talk to strangers and build relationships that embolden people in capacity and also trust to take risks with you. The only way people are going to be able to take risks with you is if they know you. And there's a level of trust. And a lot of the time, trust to me isn't actually equated with shared interest, but time especially. I feel like living in the city that we live in, it took me, like, maybe two years before people really started, like, treating me with a level of like, okay, you're here and you're in it, and we're bringing you in a little bit more. And it was really, really hard that first year of just like, feeling like I was around a bunch of people. I didn't really know I needed to build, like, infrastructure. I wanted friends who really showed up for me. I was like, I just have to be patient. Part of this is like, it's a game of patience and, like, challenging yourself to, like, take the time to build these things thoroughly.
Yeah, I feel like that's a good note for us to end on. Do you have anything here at the end either, like, final words or something that you want to plug or draw attention to?
Thank you for your time. You're really good at this. You should consider doing it somewhat professionally. Oh, thank you. I would say. Yeah. I think two things to leave on are just like, this is a commitment to yourself and your community to try to practice this muscle. I really implore everybody to do it. Your local info shop is a great low stakes place to make it happen and to try. And two is like, if you're really struggling, find a container. I think a class is always really, really helpful. Maybe like a local sports team. Maybe you're just like going to your local meeting of sorts, like, every, every other month. But finding some sort of container to, like, really build relationships makes it a lot easier and removes the pressure of, like, oh, I see this person. I have to talk to them now. Oh, I. I see this person. Like, I know I'm probably going to see them in class next week and I can talk to them then. So, yeah, just wishing people who are trying this or who are listening, like, the confidence to be able to do something that is hard because we can do hard things. And it's like, if we're ready to, like, read theory and fight the state, you're ready to talk to your neighbor. Like, you can do this. I believe that.
Yeah. I always kind of judged a, like, punk house, especially kind of emphasis on punk house here based on whether or not its neighbors that weren't punks liked them.
Yes.
Like, you'd be like, oh, like, they. Y' all at least say hi on the street, know each other's names. Great. Versus, like, oh, no, y' all are just. You really see this as passing through and you're in somebody's neighborhood, you know?
Really?
All right, well, if you want to support this podcast, which is put on by strangers in a tangled wilderness, because we even have strangers in our name. Well, actually. Okay, first, if you want to talk to strangers, you can talk to us, but you can also talk to other strangers and you can go out and do things. Mutual aid is a really good way to get involved. It's a more open door thing than a lot of other activism as well as as social centers and info shops. And then if you are in the space already, your homework is to get better at figuring out how to keep people who are curious and have the door be more open to people who are curious. Because is there risk that there might be infiltrators and things? Yes. Do you know what's really risky? Overthrowing the government and replacing it with a horizontal society in which we all take care of each other. That's really risky. I have bad news for you about how many people survive trying to do that in history. However, I have good news for you about how it compares to the survival rate of everyone in history, which is that everybody dies. You were gonna say something?
No, that's a great,
great. If you want to support this podcast or our publisher, you can go to patreon.com strangersinatangled wilderness and if you support us at $10 a month, we'll mail you a zine Everywhere in the World I actually don't know whether the US Postal Service is blocking certain countries now, but I think it's everywhere in the world for $10. It's been zero inflation for the like 7 years or something. We've been doing this. $10 at $20. I will read your name in the following list as people or your name or honestly, whatever weird thing you want me to say in this list. I want to thank. I'm going to go to the bottom and read from the bottom. I want to thank the first two chapters of the Eden Project by James Hollis. I hope that's a good book. I don't know. I want to thank the truth that we will outlive them the Pocono Pink Pistols the Keweena Socialists the Astoria Food Pantry the Athens People's assembly of Athens, Georgia Opticuna TSNB baby Acab and her three great pups Sarah Mr. Crafty your Canadian friend we only have one that's not true, Mark tiny nonsense Golden Gate 26 the Ko Initiative the incredible Renai Alexander Gopal A Future for Abby Hyunhi Max Enchanted Rats of Turtle Island Lancaster Chooses Love Karen the Canadian Socialist Rifle association the Massachusetts chapter of the Socialist Rifle Association Farrell in West Virginia Blink Cat Shovel Jason, Jenny and Phoebe the Cats Aiden and Yuki the Dog Sunshine Amber Ephemeral Appalachian Liberation Library Portland's Hedron HackerSpace Boldfield Tokiered Julia Carson Lord Harken Community Books of Stone Mountain, Georgia Princess Miranda, Janice Nodell, Allie Paparuna Milica, Theo sj, Paige, David, Dana, Micah Kirk, Chris, Micaiah, Nicole and TIVKA the Dog. The Immortal Hoss the Dog. I want to thank the following immortal choir Kickstarter people as well. Simone Wheal, Staying Hydrated, brought to you by Hannah Potatoes. Tenebrous Press, arguing about what to shout out. Experimental farm Network accordions. I have two of them. Dolly Parton and the Edgar Mialing Poe. The Cats. The Black Trowel Collective. Groot the Dog. The Kayo Initiative. Niko. The Waterfront Project. Tivka's favorite stick, Uliksean Alderman na. I hope it's na beer. I really like na beer. Be Kind and Talk to Strangers. And Cool Zone Media. And I also want to thank Prerna for coming on. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah. All right, everyone. Take care of each other as best you can. Fuck. Ice Free Palestine.