Phil Rickaby: Hello, welcome to Stageworthy. I'm Phil Rickaby, the host and producer of this podcast. Stageworthy is Canada's theatre podcast, and on Stageworthy, I talk to theatre makers of all kinds, from actors to directors to playwrights, producers. If they make theatre in Canada, I talk to them. Some of the people I talk to are household names, and the rest are people that I think you should get to know. If you're watching on YouTube, please do me a favour, like this episode, leave a comment so that I know that you were here. And if you like Stageworthy, hit the subscribe button and that bell icon so that whenever a new episode comes out, you'll get notified that a new episode is available. If you're listening to the audio version, please make sure that you are subscribed. Go to your favourite podcast app, search for Stageworthy, and hit the follow button. And while you're there, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, do me a favour and leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews help new people to find the show. I also have a Patreon, and I'm going to talk about that a little bit later in the show. But first, just know that I can't do the show, I can't make the show without the people who have chosen to back me on Patreon. And I'm so grateful to everybody who's done so. If you would like to be one of the people that helps me to make Stageworthy, go to Patreon.com slash Stageworthy and become a patron. My guest this week is director Ming Hudson. Ming is the director of Bard on the Beach's Antigone, and we're going to talk about that show, how it came to be, everything about Ming, and a little bit about D&D. So that conversation is coming up right now. Ming Hudson, thank you so much for joining me on Stageworthy. As we record this, you just opened Antigone at Bard on the Beach. Tell me, okay, how was the opening?
Ming Hudson: Oh my gosh, it was like a dream come true. Truly, it was. It was really hard not to be super emotional all day. Even before I got to the tents, every time I looked at a card or was writing a speech, I was already crying. And I'm just so exceptionally proud of the production and so exceptionally proud of everybody who's been involved with it. Sometimes as a director, when you have to let something go, you're still there on opening night and you see all the little things that go wrong and you're like, oh, I don't have time to fix it. But this just felt like I just felt so happy to release it to the public and to the world and just to sort of have it soar without me and have it be on its own and have the actors like really take it now and take it forward. Yeah, it was a pleasure. It was a privilege. It was a privilege.
Phil Rickaby: Nice. Antigone is one of those, I mean, it's one of the Greeks. It's one of the classic Greek plays, the ones that I think a lot of times we do them in theatre school or something like that. They don't get a lot of attention outside of those settings. For those who may not know, what is Antigone? What is Antigone?
Ming Hudson: So Antigone is part of the Oedipus trilogy that was written by Sophocles. It's the last part of it. And, you know, Oedipus has his own big story. And where Antigone finds us is at the very end, after Oedipus has self-exiled himself, he's left now the city of Thebes to his two sons to take care of. And they agree to swap the crown every year. And after the first year, Attiocles refuses to give the crown over to the second brother, Polyneices. And so Polyneices attacks the city and this ensuing war, both of the brothers kill each other in this war. And then we find ourselves at Antigone, where she is here grieving the death of her both of her brothers, but specifically her brother Polyneices, who, because he attacked the city, he is labeled like a traitor. And Creon, her uncle, who's now the king, has made this edict to leave him out in the sun to rot where he died. And she refuses to let his soul wander, his spirit just be wandering forever. And she decides to bury the body. And that's where we find Antigone. We find her sort of at the very end of this big epic story.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. What is it that drew you to Antigone?
Ming Hudson: You know, so Kate Besworth, who's a playwright of this show, and I hesitate to even use the word adapter because it's like she's taken Sophocles and many other inspirations and she's really created something new. So I would say playwright in this case. You know, her and I have been working on this piece for seven years, since 2019. And I remember when we were talking about doing something together, to make something together, we just sat and we were just running through like something that felt really important to us was that it was like a female four-word story. And we knew we wanted it to be a classic. And Antigone kind of just floated into our consciousness. And it just, this felt so right, even seven years ago. And now it feels even more relevant now, which is wild. Yeah. So it kind of, for us, we just, we wanted to tell a story about a woman who does the right thing despite being told not to do it. Yeah. That's sort of like the very condensed version of why this project came to be.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, that is what she does. That is like the very story of Antigone, like you were just describing. And it throws the world into eventual, like briefly chaos and then order.
Ming Hudson: Yeah. It's like, you know, something that we keep coming back to with this script is, you know, she's just like, please just let this mean something. Cause she doesn't know. Right. She doesn't know what her death is going to do. Like what's going to be in the wake of her death. And she doesn't know she does it anyways, despite like, maybe nothing happens. Maybe nothing changes. She doesn't know, but she does it anyways. Because, because it is right.
Phil Rickaby: Greek theatre often has a lot of spectacle. It has a chorus and it has like lots of things going on. They would occasionally like bring a God out of the machine, you know, this kind of thing. And, and, and, you know, Antigone is epic. It has Kings and Gods and Prophets. What, what kind of spectacle can an audience expect to see in this production of Antigone?
Ming Hudson: You know, what's so interesting is that we decided to, to, from the very conception of this project, we wanted to make it the most minimal storytelling we possibly could. And so I will say it's like the spectacles almost like the absence of spectacle. Like it has like, by design on purpose from the very beginning, it's like almost no set. It has like, like, I'm not joking, like three props and, you know, where, where the design really, you know, like for me, that sort of absence of design helps us to enhance the fact that this is a story told by like human bodies. We really wanted our performers to carry this story. And so also like our lighting and our sound design is in, in support of that, as opposed to like taking over in any way. And so I would say like it, if you come and see this production of it, like expect to see something, a story told as minimally as possible. We keep saying like, we wanted it to, it's like, we're inviting people around a campfire to, to hear a story that's been told for millennia. So it's so funny because it feels like in its own way, that is kind of fresh and exciting to see something so, so pared down.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, spectacle can be like, it's just the image on the stage, right? That's what the spectacle is. It's the image on the stage, not necessarily, I don't know, falling chandeliers or explosions or things like that. That's not spectacle. Years ago, there was a production of Antigone done by a company that performed it on a stage they built under the Bathurst Street Bridge in Toronto or near there. And there was an entrance, I think it was the entrance of Oedipus and they had a bunch of runners and they ran from Fort York and then they crossed the bridge with a massive flag that like was billowing out behind them and Antigone, or sorry, Oedipus was in that crowd. And it was that, that image of these guys running across the bridge. Simple, but very distinct. And I still think about that image even now. And that was like 20 years ago. And it doesn't have to be props. It doesn't have to be costumes. It doesn't have to be fancy. It's just be bodies. And that's that, that kind of spectacle is really effective.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, we, you know, it's so great. Like this show, it also, since its conception has been very like circular to me. So I, I really staged it like in a circle and the show is currently done, you know, in a, it's quite a, like the thrust is, it's like the, there's a psych that basically cuts off the back of the audience and there's a thrust. And so it just feels like you're sort of surrounded on all sides and then behind you is a psych and that's kind of, that's kind of it. And what I wanted and what I tried to strive for is just like painting pictures with our like very limited props. Like we have like a chair, a sheet, and like a couple other things and just bodies. And how does like, it felt very mathematical. Like, you know, if someone's on this side of a circle, if we're staging it in a circle, like someone's here, like if you're just slightly off of a diagonal, it's, it's wrong. Like everything for me felt so mathematical. It had to be so precise or else it just feels slightly off. And so I hope, I'm hoping that I've created some like beautiful images that people can, can resonate with as they, you know, leave the theatre and think about it.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I mean, that kind of specificity is so important. Like if somebody wasn't on that, that writing, if they weren't in the right spot, it would look sloppy.
Ming Hudson: Yeah. And it's, and it's so, this piece felt just so intentional. Everything is so intentional about it because we have nothing to rely on. You know, we have, there isn't like a couch we can bring out and all of a sudden we have a couch on the stage. Right. It's just like, oh no, it's like, if you're slightly off, it's like, all you have is those bodies. And then, and then when do you purposefully break that, break that diagonal to make it mean something. Right.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious. Cause one thing you specified that I should ask you about the arrow.
Ming Hudson: Oh yeah. Okay.
Phil Rickaby: So tell me, tell me about the arrow and why is it important?
Ming Hudson: Okay. So something that is really important to my practice in general, but especially for this piece was having the most like non-hierarchical process we possibly could. And so this is like something that I stole from Meg Rowe, who is like genius director, wonderful performer based out of Vancouver. And, you know, we also, we often talk about these sort of theatre hierarchies in your more traditional theatre productions where you kind of have this like pyramid and at the top of the pyramid is like most important person. And then it like trickles down and it feels gross. And Meg once told me, like, if you take your pyramid and you flip it onto its side, it becomes like an arrow head. And it doesn't mean that there's no one at the front. There's still a point person, but everyone is of equal importance. And so it felt, especially in the show where we were just like, it felt like we built it so collaboratively, you know, and, and so for me, having that arrow was so important. Like I'm not the smartest person in the room. My ideas are not the best, but together we're going to make something awesome. And something I said on opening night was just like, I cannot tell where one person begins and another person ends in this piece, because like that moment that was like an assistant director and that moment, actually that was the lighting designer. And that moment was an actor and this moment was me. Everything is like all of us. And so, yeah, the arrow feels really important to me, this sort of collaborative non-hierarchical process in which everyone can just leave feeling like good and that it's theirs, all of ours, you know.
Phil Rickaby: The rehearsal room can be a very difficult place to navigate. And it can be, it can be fraught because if you're a director, all of the actors are basically looking at you, like for all of the answers, right? My friend, Richard Bone, who's always one of my favorite directors to work with, one of the first times, first few times we worked together, it was so frustrating because I would say, what, what, what is this? And he would say, I don't know, let's find out. And I'd be like, I'd be like, what do you mean? I'm not going to be your answer. But after a while you start to realize that like, when you come up with it together, like as a cast and a director and you're, everybody's coming to the decision together, it means so much more because you got there together.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, totally. And it's like, sometimes like you got to go through the weeds to get to the other end, but it's like, y'all got there together, right? You know, and I, and I feel like, I love saying, I don't know. I don't know. What is this? What are we doing here? I don't know. We'll figure it out. And we will, and we will figure it out.
Phil Rickaby: Now you are, this is your directing debut with Bard on the Beach. Yeah. You've been an actor with Bard on the Beach for a number of years. What was it like coming to, as a director for the first time?
Ming Hudson: You know, it, Bard has this really exceptional way of fostering this transition from actor to director or in like Kate's case, a playwright. And you know, if I look around town, so many directors that are still performers came from there, like, like your Meg Rose or your Lois Anderson, Scott Bellis, like, these are people who were actors for a long time. And then Bard kind of gave them sort of the opportunity to do like something else, something, a flexible, a different part of their brain. So I think in a way it feels like coming home, like it really does, especially because Kate and I, we developed the show originally for Bard. Like they, we pitched it to them first. They gave us our first workshop. We kind of made it for this stage in mind. And then now to come back, it felt so, yeah, like, like comfortable in that way, where you feel like I'm not learning the ropes of how a company works. And I've also was lucky enough to direct, assistant direct or apprentice direct with Steven Drover when he did Hamlet a few years ago. And so I also got a little glimpse of kind of that backstage production world a few years ago too. So it felt like, in a way, like I couldn't have been more prepared. And I think that's something really, I feel really lucky to, to have had that history with the company.
Phil Rickaby: Now, had you directed before, aside from assistant directing?
Ming Hudson: At Bard or just in general? Yes, I have. Yeah. Yeah. So I have directed sort of like basically coast to coast and kind of like everywhere in between. To keep on talking about Antigone, we actually did the premier production of it at Two Planks and a Passion in Nova Scotia, which just happened in a very magical way, the way it ended up there. It was, it was wild. Ken Schwartz was so amazing. He gave Kate and I this opportunity to do our show out, out there and he had never even met us. And they also gave us a workshop out there. And this production was like, when I talk about bringing around the campfire, like it literally was around a bonfire. And so we did Antigone like on the earth, the sky like turned dark, the moon came up, you know, there were owls swooping in and dogs howling and stars in the sky, like it was so incredible. And so I feel like, you know, I've, I've been really lucky to sort of direct in a lot of places that I, I never expected to, I never expected to end up in rural Nova Scotia, where I just did a show in Saskatoon. And, and it, and it's so, it's like such an honour to go and meet artists that I never would meet. And like to be so inspired by people just like this country's full of incredible artists and what a, what a privilege it is to, to be able to be welcomed into a community that's not your own and then be able to make something with that community.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of my, one of my dreams would be to be able to, I don't know, spend a week or two in each, each of the major theatre hubs in this country to get to experience their theatre culture for like a period of time. And then like, just go some, go to the next one. And just like, by the time you're done, have actually like felt what theatre feels like in each of those places.
Ming Hudson: Yeah. And it's been so welcoming. Like it's just been so, you know, I just worked at 25th Street Theatre in Saskatoon with another new show and, and they just like, kind of like opened their arms. I didn't know anybody, everyone in Saskatoon was so nice. Like people not even in the theatre, people, I like went to a gym for a couple of months and like, people were like driving me to the gym. Like everyone was just so nice. And I had people that I met at the gym come to this show and they'd never seen a theatre production in their lives. And I was like, what a beautiful community to just like say yes and, and like open their arms. It was very cool.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Now, just to come back to something you said just a little bit ago, which was about saying, I don't know. Oh yeah. Now, as somebody who, you know, you, this was your first time being the director at a Barn on the Beach show, but you've obviously directed before and you've said, I don't know before, but I'm curious about the first time, the first time that you said, I don't know, was that intimidating? Was it freeing? What, what was, what was that like?
Ming Hudson: You know, it was so interesting. So it was the, the, the time that I can, that really stands out to me was I was in the Shemana Theatre Festival and I was directing this like five person Christmas carol. And it was kind of like coming right out of COVID. So everything had to be like smaller. And it was called a tiny Christmas carol by Mark DeMay and Jessica Schacht. And, and we were collaborating as I do always, and making the show, I come from a devising background to, to directing. And so, you know, doing this collaboration. And then I had a day where I was so overwhelmed. I was like so overwhelmed. I said, this might've been my very first professional show that I directed. And I looked over at my stage manager, who was Liz King. I looked at her and my eyes were like filling with tears. And she said, do you need to take a break? And I said, you know, I think I just need to take a break. And then we just took a break. I went downstairs. I like had a cry for like 10 minutes and I came back up and I just said, okay, I just had a little moment. I just needed a second. It's okay. Everything is fine. We're gonna figure it out. I just got a little overwhelmed, but I just needed a second. And then we just got back into it and it was totally fine. But my God, and, and since then I feel like there's something about me as a director or as an actor too. It's like, when I see everyone, every director has those days and it's like, okay. It's like, okay. It actually makes me feel more excited to work with the director when I don't feel like they know everything. Like when, when I see them be vulnerable in a moment also. Cause I'm like, yeah, we all have those days. It's okay. We're human. But it also was very helpful to have a stage manager who just said, tune you. And just was like, let's just take a, let's just take a minute. And then we did. And then we just kept going.
Phil Rickaby: Stage managers are, are kind of magic that way. They're, they know, they notice, they notice everything.
Ming Hudson: Oh my gosh. Like, and let's like, let me say Canada has some exceptional stage managers, like really. And they're like the glue.
Phil Rickaby: I have, I, you know, it's funny. I've worked, I worked as an usher at some of the Marvelous theatres in Toronto for a couple of times. And there's one guy who seems to be like the production stage manager on every major show that Mirvish would do, which means that he's in charge of like everything. He's not necessarily running the show, but he's in charge of everything. There's a lot on his shoulders. He was the nicest goddamn guy you would ever talk to. He was always friendly, always. And he didn't have to be to like ushers and other people, but he was always, always like the nicest guy. And I think that that's sort of like that stage managers in Canada.
Ming Hudson: So nice. Like really nice. And, and, and, you know, something that I also love doing in my collaboration, I always look at a stage manager and I say, what do you think about that? And then, because they're so smart, they, they've seen more shows than anybody else, this entire industry. I'm like, why not? Why wouldn't I look at them and say, well, what do you think about this?
Phil Rickaby: Well, they're going to think about things that maybe you haven't, they're going to be like, that can't work because it's scene four. And they're going to know that immediately. And you've forgotten about scene four already.
Ming Hudson: Totally. Totally. Absolutely.
Phil Rickaby: I wanted to ask you about, because I know that you are an avid D&D player.
Ming Hudson: Oh my gosh. Yes.
Phil Rickaby: I have been a role player for many years.
Ming Hudson: Oh my gosh. Yes.
Phil Rickaby: I have a game that I'm trying to work on getting started. It's not D&D, it's another, another universe, but I've been trying to mull it over. But I'm curious because I know, I know what it is for me, but what has role-playing taught you about theatre?
Ming Hudson: Oh, you know what, you know, it's such a privilege is my, my very first, actually, my very first D&D was the year Kate, Kate and I made this show and it was a bunch of barred folks. And we just like played after, after shows, you know, and then now I'm part of this D&D group that is like run by Andrew McNee, who's this incredible actor in Vancouver. And there's like 20 of us in this, and it's been going on for like six years. And we just like pop in and out, or sometimes like a group of us will go on a side quest for quite a long time. And, and I think what has taught me, what's so, what's a pleasure is that, you know, playing with, especially with other actors, you know, we do this for our jobs and we also do it for fun. And I think there's just, there's something about like this openness to say yes, it's, it's, I think it's shown me a lot of like, like, yeah, openness to be vulnerable, openness to find pleasure in play. And just, I don't know, it just, it just allows you to, for a moment, like connect with people that you know very well in such a different way. And I, and I, I'm not joking. I think it's made my professional relationships with all these people way stronger, like a million times stronger because they're like going through, through journeys and, and quests and missions and failures and sadness together. Like I've laughed so hard that I've been crying and I've cried too, because sometimes something really heartbreaking happens. And I don't know, I don't know. I think it just, it's like, it's, it's, it's like those things you want to bring every day into rehearsal, the vulnerability to say yes, the vulnerability to, to open your heart, you know, like, I think it's so cool.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I, that I sort of learned early on, and I played with a group of people who were like really committed to the acting angle on it. And we came to this realization that we had more fun if we played to lose. Like, like, this might not be the best decision for your character. It might be bad, but it'd be the most interesting thing for everybody. And so you would make like, you would consciously be like, I can find a reason for the character to do this. And you would do it and everybody would have a blast because you made like an interesting decision. You know, and it was, you know, some people, people can get like caught up in, in the game and they can like really sort of put a lot into it. I need to win, this sort of thing. And that's not fun to play with. And also it, it's not that fun, just generally.
Ming Hudson: This, this game that, that Andrew McNeill runs, he made, it's a, it's a family. So everyone is linked. It's kind of two main families. And then a few other people that have like married in, but it, it makes you be like, I'm, I'm one of the matriarchs. I'm this, like, like, I don't know how, I can't remember how old I am, like 68 or something at this point. And, but it means that like, when we go into battle, like my grandchild is, make sure grandma doesn't die. Like, you know what I mean? And so it's like, so sometimes you make choices because like you, that is the paramount thing. And that, that might lead away from something that might be technically like a better choice to make.
Phil Rickaby: Absolutely. I think it's made me a better playwright. Like that kind of thing as well. And also one of the things that's, that's interesting just in general is as a person who runs games and your, your DM may, may, may know this. If you say no story survives contact with the players. Yes. Yeah. Because that's like a metaphor for like you come into, you come into as a director, you have a plan and it's got, you just have to be able to go, well, I had a plan and this is what we're doing now. Exactly. You have no choice. And it's, it, it brings so much flexibility to the way that you move through the world.
Ming Hudson: Yeah. I also DM for a group of my high school friends who are not actors. And like, sometimes like may and I write, like when I write my sessions, it's like seven pages of like a script. And sometimes they're like, well, we're going to go over here. And you're like, fuck. And you got to say yes. And yeah, you're totally right. That is exactly like being in the rehearsal room. Sometimes your best laid plans are, are not right for the moment.
Phil Rickaby: No.
Ming Hudson: They're like some, there's a better option. There's a more interesting option that you didn't even know.
Phil Rickaby: You don't know about it because your players made the decision. It's like, you have a whole story ready to go. You have a character in the tavern that you think is the most interesting person in the world. And you mentioned a dwarf in passing. It's like, and there's a dwarf and everybody's like, I want to talk to the dwarf. And you're like, I didn't make the dwarf. I don't know. You're like trying to get them to go over to the Ranger. This is the guy who's interesting. And they just want to go for the dwarf. And you got to be like, well, this is the story now. Yeah, totally. What was it? Was it difficult? Like, did you take any convincing to start playing D&D? Or were you just like, I mean, because it could be there. I mean, not anymore, but there was a stigma about it at one time.
Ming Hudson: No, it took me no convincing. And, and I love it. Like, I love it. Like, I'm also playing Baldur's Gate 3 right now, which is just D&D on a console. And I'm having the, I am just so into like, the storytelling is just fantastic.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. It's amazing how, you know, you have a show like Stranger Things, which sort of like introduced some people to D&D as a thing to play on in the mainstream. You have actual play like Dimension 20 and, and whatever the other ones are. These things are like massive events. People like watch other people play D&D. And it's kind of like part of the culture now, which is fascinating.
Ming Hudson: Yeah. I'm just like, well, I mean, sometimes we're, you know, we're playing and we're all actors. And I'm like, should we be recording? It's like, this is pretty good. Like, it's pretty good. And also in the same kind of like bringing it back to like directing, you're also making something collectively, like you collectively have made this story together. How exciting is that?
Phil Rickaby: It is so like, once you start to realize, because it's not just the, the, the game master, the dungeon master that's telling the story, everybody is. And so you just, once you start to realize that, should you be recording it? Probably. I mean, come on, like, let everybody see it. I mean, it might be the most brilliant thing ever. I don't see why I, sometimes I think that we should just all share these things because, you know, they're, they're mad and they're wonderful.
Ming Hudson: What an, it's what a, what a treat. And, you know, I think, I think, you know, as, as, as people in the theatre, like we do kind of get to live these, these other lives all the time. But I think about people who just, who don't, and then this is their time to inhabit other people and play with their friends and create something together. And like, what a joy. It feels so, it's like we're, we're re-tapping into something we did in childhood so easily. And, and now we can do it as an, an adult. And I love that for everybody. I love it.
Phil Rickaby: It's, it is so literally just, just like playing a game with your kids, with your friends. Right. It's literally like, it's the same as like, bang, bang, I got you. And instead of somebody going, no, you didn't, you missed, there's like a decision that's made and everybody abides by it. It's just like, everybody just making stuff up and it's, it's fabulous.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, absolutely love it.
Phil Rickaby: I am curious about your theatre origin story. What was, how were you first exposed to the theatre? What made you want to do this?
Ming Hudson: That's such an interesting, that's such an interesting question. You know, I, you know, I did theatre sort of like throughout like junior high school. I grew up in Alberta and, and then I, and then I sort of started taking it a little bit more seriously in high school. And I went to this high school, which was like a sports high school. There's like four people who were really into it. You know what I mean? But having, having sort of less people who were interested in also meant that we had more opportunity to do things. And I think that I don't know, like, it feels like sometime in high school, I just decided that it's what I wanted to do. And then I just did it. Like, you know I had this moment when I was in my undergrad, I went to UVic for my undergrad, where I wasn't quite sure whether or not I wanted to be an actor. Like I wasn't sure if like, I wanted to be in like naturalism and, and, and realism. And if that's like what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And then I had this movement teacher and we did some like, you know, Lecoq work and it, and it changed my whole life. Like for real. I saw him recently, this wonderful artist named Scott Malcolm. And I said, did you know, like you changed my life? Like I had you for one semester and ended up going and studying like the Lecoq pedagogy at the school in London for two years. And, and now that's what I teach my students. And that's why I bring into my room. I'm like, how cool is it that that one person really like shifted my whole trajectory? Yeah. But I just like, it feels like I just decided, and then I kind of kept, and then I just went. And then, you know, about five or six years ago, sort of in the pandemic, it felt like I didn't move entirely away from acting. I just kind of wanted to shift my focus a little bit. And now I'm kind of following a different thread in a way and not entirely. I'm also still acting, but there's also another thread that I'm pulling. And yeah, I don't know. It's hard to like, I don't know what my origin story is other than I just kind of decided one day. And then I never stopped.
Phil Rickaby: Do you remember, you mentioned like kind of doing some plays in junior high school. Was that your first exposure to theatre or like what, did you see something at some point?
Ming Hudson: Do you remember what that first thing was? I think it's because, okay, so I grew up in Edmonton, right? And the fringe is so big in Edmonton. And I just remember always going. Everybody went. Like, and I think my parents were really good at taking me to go see kind of like those, those regionals that would go across, or not the regionals, those tours that would go across Canada. And then when I started to like know a little bit more, I started to go to the Citadel and, you know, seek it out. But there's something about the fringe in Edmonton, like really, like everybody goes kind of regardless of what job you do normally. It just, it takes over the whole city. And so it feels like it, it's just always been very present in my, in my life. Like I don't, I remember going to the theatre as a little, as a little kid. I can't remember what the show exactly was, but it was one of those like black light, like puppetry where it looks like it's magic and it's just like black light puppets. And I remember going and, and it was at like a Jubilee, like a huge theatre. And I was like, I don't know, six. My mom's like, let's go to see this black light thing. And then all of a sudden, like, I still remember it. Like I remember it. And I remember the magic of it. So yeah, I feel like, I feel like it's kind of just been there.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I mean, the Edmonton fringe, that is so foundational for, for so many people. I think if you are not somebody who has been in or lived in Edmonton or Winnipeg, you cannot fathom how massive those fringes are.
Ming Hudson: Oh yeah. And, and then I've had, you know, I went and did my master's in the UK and ended up taking two shows to the Edinburgh fringe a couple of years and to go there, my God, it's like, I have seen things that are just inconceivable.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Ming Hudson: Like they just wouldn't happen here. Like it's just, it just wouldn't happen. And you're just wandering. Or I see something like underneath a bridge or I see something in a vault or I see like the Edinburgh fringe is unreal. And I just, you know, I've done, I think I've done 14 fringes with like nine different shows. And I love the fringe. I think it is such a good opportunity to, to have your voice. And it offers a, like a little bit of a foundation, a little bit of a, like scaffolding in order to do that. And so now as like, I teach in post-secondary now, and I'm always encouraging my students, I was like, make a fringe show, like go, like you will learn so much about your craft, about how to, you know, like produce, you'll learn about like what you want to make and who you want to be. Like, I just think they are so important in, in our ecology.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I mean, not only will you learn about, about, you know, what you want to produce, like you, you learn about what your voice is, you'll learn how to promote a show. Yeah.
Ming Hudson: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: And you'll sink or swim based on, on the promotion you create. It is such a powerful lesson to just take into how you move forward with your career.
Ming Hudson: Absolutely. I, I, yeah, I think it's so, you know, I think, I think sometimes like we disregard it because it's just like people doing shows and it's like indie and it's independent and it's all, it's all of these things, but I'm like, man, I have seen some of the best shows of my life at a fringe and what a privilege it is for us to be able to, to see all of it, to see everyone's brains and, and to have a taste of like something from Australia or, or something from, from two new grads from Vancouver. Awesome. What a, what a, what a joy.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I think it's a little bit different in Toronto. We have our fringe, listen, we have had some shows that went on to do other things. The Drowsy Chaperone was a fringe show. It was a fringe show.
Ming Hudson: I didn't know that.
Phil Rickaby: The couple that created Come From Away did their first musical at the fringe. It was called My Mother's Lesbian Wicked Wedding. Kim's Convenience was a fringe show. And so I feel like the difference, you know, in Edmonton, it's just like, it's just a fun thing. Everybody goes and maybe, you know, what's the future of this show? Who cares? People here are looking for the next Kim's Convenience. It's the thing that is different about the Toronto fringe. It's like, it's like you do your show here kind of slightly hoping that maybe this show will go on to something else, you know? And I don't think you get that in other fringes in Canada.
Ming Hudson: No, like I've, I've, it's definitely not something that I as a producer have ever like set out to do, but that's fascinating. I didn't know that that's something that was part of that.
Phil Rickaby: But I do think that that can be something that people go into the Edinburgh fringe with.
Ming Hudson: Oh, absolutely. For sure.
Phil Rickaby: It's like, because Six, the musical, was an Edinburgh fringe show. And there are other shows that go on to be other things. It, this, people go to the Edinburgh fringe from all over Europe, all kinds of producers looking for the next best thing.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, it is, it is really cool. It is, it is so cool. And I think that's something about like European theatre in general. I think there's just so much like really, really wanting to find, find those like gems and then like bring them, polish them up and like bring them to the surface. I think it's a little harder in Canadian theatre, I think, to be picked up from something like that.
Phil Rickaby: It is so hard for the, in Canadian theatre, but I think that like the fringe gives us, like you were saying, this opportunity to be weird, to be, to do something that you, nobody would ever let you do this anywhere else. I know, right? And you can prove, no, we could do this. It can work on the stage. And it's the only way you're going to prove that like this weird thing will work is by doing it at the fringe. And I think that's an amazing thing about fringe festivals in general.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, absolutely. I, yeah, I'm, I'm a huge fringe fan. I think it, I think it's just so, so important and so cool. And it's like one of my favourite things to do every year.
Phil Rickaby: So we just finished the, as we're recording this, we just finished The Fringe in Toronto. And to me, I call it theatre Christmas. It's the most wonderful time of the year. It is my favourite thing.
Ming Hudson: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Because you're gonna, not only are you gonna see the great shows, you're gonna, it's like the one time that we all run into each other.
Ming Hudson: I know. And you're just like having a good time.
Phil Rickaby: I know. It's so fun. Actually, is there, is there an ethos in The Fringe? Because you mentioned doing like 14 fringes.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, I've done so many of them.
Phil Rickaby: Is, is there some aspect of The Fringe that has infected and affected your theatre philosophy?
Ming Hudson: Yeah, I think so. I think, I think there's something about the like self-producing, self-promoting part of it. But it's not like you're never doing it alone. Like I've never like, I'm gonna do a fringe by myself. Like you're always doing it with your, your colleagues. You're always doing it with your friends. And so I think there is something about it's like, it is also very, for me, it's very collaborative. You're like, your roommate and you all of a sudden are like, sitting on the couch and trying to email every single reviewer in town. And like, there's just something so cool. There's such a collaborative spirit about the festival for me, that I think definitely has carried, carried over. And also just like tenacity. It's like, man, the first fringe I did, I didn't know what I was doing. Like I have no clue. And then you just kind of figure it out. And then every year you do another and you figure it out a little bit more. But I think it's made me a little bit less scared to, let's say, pitch a show to Bart on the Beach, because I've just been like producing shows, little baby guys for 20 years. But maybe if I didn't have that experience, I wouldn't be brave enough to do it now. You know what I mean?
Phil Rickaby: I do. I do. One of the lessons that I, when I did a fringe tour back in 2012, the storyteller Cameron Moore at the Montreal Fringe held a little workshop and said, the most important thing that you can, that you need to remember is that there is audience enough for everyone. And that sentence has buried itself in my brain because I firmly believe that. Because every show, every time somebody goes to see a show, it's a win for me, because that's somebody who would see my show. They've been introduced to theatre, they could come and see my show. We all win when we share our audiences, we share this sort of thing. There is audience enough for everybody. We're not really in competition.
Ming Hudson: Totally. No, totally. And also, I think we all have those types of theatres that we enjoy seeing more or making more. But I don't think that makes the other types of theatres any less important. I think there is room for everything. Because I too want to go and see Six the Musical and be just entertained for an hour. Of course I do. I love that musical. It's the best. But because it is sort of like this big Broadway show, it's also like entertainment. And I think there is room for entertainment. And I think there's room for something heartfelt. And I think there's room for indie theatre. And there's room for the fringe. All of it is important.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. We need all of it. We go to see comedies because we need to laugh. We go to see tragedies because we need to cry. And we go to see other shows because it's all in between. We need all of these things. So we can't just, as people who make theatre, we can't just be like, this is important theatre. We occasionally have to give people something that's just kind of fun.
Ming Hudson: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think there's something too about this aspect of being in a space with people who are alive in front of you. And you're in an audience. And everybody's there together. I just think that it's such a collective experience that we get it from going to see a concert. I think there's something about live performance that just is so special. Like I feel so differently when I go see a concert than I do when I go see a movie. Yeah, I'm just like, I'd so it feels so singular. So I think it's powerful. Yeah, in every aspect is just so powerful, because you, you know, you're you're there. I was, I just saw the opening of Goblin Oedipus at Bard, right. And something they say is like, we're curious about whether or not every audience breathes together. Do you all breathe together? Is that something that happens? And I just think that was such a beautiful sentiment. Because you do. You do breathe together.
Phil Rickaby: And that's the thing that makes theatre unique. It's the thing that keeps us coming back, right? Because it doesn't happen in every show. Not every show will give you that moment. But when it does, it becomes this thing that you kind of get hungry for. Like, I need that again. That moment when like, because that's, you know, remember, first first day of theatre school in theatre history class, Peter Wilde, our head of acting, teaching our theatre history says, what is theatre? And everybody's like, it's a building. It's a play. And he's like, no, theatre is when audience and actor breathe together.
Ming Hudson: Oh, I love that.
Phil Rickaby: And it is it. I get goosebumps when I think about the moments when that has happened. And it's only happened in the it's happened in the theatre a handful of times. But every time I can remember each time, each moment when it happened with absolute clarity.
Ming Hudson: Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's just some magic in that. There's some magic in that, right? Like, like, we've made something out of nothing. And now, like, our now we can feel it in our bodies as an audience member. And like, what? It's so magical.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah.
Ming Hudson: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: We talk about teaching. Let's talk about about I would love to I'd love to hear about about your teaching and how you got into teaching.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, it's so interesting. I've always been a teacher, like, I think ever since I graduated from undergrad, and it was always something that I like, kind of did to supplement, like my, my artistic work. And at some point in my life, I got a master's partially, partially because it felt important to me because I'm like, well, maybe one day I'll want to work in post secondary was something in the back of my brain. And then, again, in the pandemic, see all this stuff shifted for me in a really good way. In the pandemic, CCPA in Victoria called me and they were like, Do you want to come and teach for us? So I did this, this for like three years where I would commute from Vancouver to Victoria, it was wild. Don't let's look, it was a time. But what I found was actually that academia is not like a supplement to my artistic work, it's actually that they are balanced, you know, like, I think I have learned more about being an artist by teaching art by teaching theatre, I've learned more about being a theatre artist. And I think like, they feed they feed into each other. And, and I love I love it. I think I've learned so much about my practice from from from my students, like really, truly. And I get to teach movement and I get to teach devising and I get to do these things that are so integral to me and my own my own practice, and then I get to give them to other people. And I always say like, you know, you might never use this again, but at least you have it, at least you have it in your pocket. And at least I can offer you a different access into material that you might not have known about before. And I love it. I really love it. I think it's so some like I've had a couple years where I haven't had the time in my schedule to do a lot of teaching. And I and it is it does feel I'm gonna say a little unbalanced. I'm like, Oh, like, it feels like I need that little bit of me to sort of balance balance everything out.
Phil Rickaby: I would just when I was in theatre school, it was the 1990s because I'm an old man. And the way that we taught theatre was very different than I think. There was a lot of I mean, there are some things that people would now would say, that's kind of abusive. And I'm thinking back, like, yeah, kind of is. But the way that we teach theatre has changed. But also, I think the students have changed.
Ming Hudson: Very much.
Phil Rickaby: Things were things that we put up with. They were nobody would nobody would accept now. Yeah. How do you see the students that you're encountering dealing with the theatre world that they're about to head into?
Ming Hudson: That's a really interesting question. You know, I think I think that, you know, the generation coming up is like, so smart, and so perceptive, and so conscientious. And I think it makes them really investigate a lot of things it with, with a lot with more specificity than I think we did, because we kind of just said, like, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's just what we did. You know, but I also think in a way, I didn't need to talk about the pandemic so much. And as I also think, in a way, the pandemic really did, there is also a little bit of, like timidness, I see in young students now, as well. And I really think it is because, like, they're in high school when they couldn't see their friends for three years, like, that's a really, that's really tough. And so when they're coming to university, they're coming with like, less kind of like social experience than I think previous generations has. So but there's so that's also a part of it, too, because I find they're really, they're, they're quite tender. And, and they, they just need a lot of space. And, and that's okay. And that and that's totally okay that they do. You know, and I hope that as people sort of gain, we get further away from this, like really life changing period of time, that people are able to find their bravery a little bit faster again.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, it's understandable that people might be timid, they might be tender.
Ming Hudson: Totally.
Phil Rickaby: Especially when they don't have the foundation of the way that people interact in high school, and they're, they're face to face, it's, it's a really weird time for them to now be like, all right, now, you guys, we're gonna play Zip Zaps up. And you're like, what the?
Ming Hudson: Yeah, totally.
Phil Rickaby: You gotta, all right, you and you, this scene means you got a kiss, we got to figure out how that's gonna happen. Yeah. Well, again, we have intimacy coordinators in theatre school, and I think that, you know, we did stage combat. Now I wish that we'd also had, like, intimacy class.
Ming Hudson: I know, like, okay, but here, here's the thing is that even professional world, I think some of the stuff that I did, even four years ago, never would happen now. Absolutely not.
Phil Rickaby: No, that's absolutely true. That's absolutely true. Because now, you'd be like, now somebody would be like, wait a second, these, this guy, he caresses her cheek, we need an intimacy coordinator. And on some level, somebody's like, that's ridiculous. But also, it's not. It's not ridiculous, because we don't know what each person's experience is. And we have to figure out a way to navigate it. So we should have somebody who's a professional to do this.
Ming Hudson: Totally. Even if that, even if they just come in, and it's just like, we actually feel totally cool about this, and we can caress the cheek, and it's fine. At least we know.
Phil Rickaby: That's the thing. We had to have a conversation with a professional. Yes.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. I think I, you know, I'm, I am incredibly grateful for, for intimacy coordinators now, too, because also, like, as a director, like, who am I? I don't know how to do that. No, that's, I don't, I literally don't know how, like, that's why people, people study this, and they train, and they have experience, because, like, I don't know the language. I don't know how to make it as safe as someone else can. And so I find it's such a gift.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't choreograph a fight. Yeah. I wouldn't be like, yeah, we can figure this out. You just whack on that guy, you can whack, like, that's how we used to intimacy. You just figure it out. You're going to do that, then you do that. And it's like, we can't do that shit.
Ming Hudson: I know. It's wild. It's really wild.
Phil Rickaby: I want to get back to Antigone for a second.
Ming Hudson: Okay, yes.
Phil Rickaby: As we're, as we're in closing, and one of the things that it occurred, you mentioned that Goblin Oedipus is at the, is at Bart on the Beach.
Ming Hudson: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: And, you know, Antigone is, like, the final part of the, of the Oedipus story. And they're very different things, Antigone and Goblin Oedipus, but people are going to experience Goblin Oedipus and Antigone together. I know. On different nights. I know. How, how, how, how does that, what do you hope audiences take away from seeing these two very different interpretations of these Greek tragedies?
Ming Hudson: You know, it's really interesting, because I actually, I missed when Goblin Macbeth was here, so I had no idea what was, what was coming. And it's like, yes, the goblins are, of course, like, making commentary about this story, but it's also, like, incredibly well acted. I was like, holy crap, like, this is really well, this is like, and in the moments where they're really embodying it, it's, like, really, it's, like, serious, and they're, like, really committing to it, you know? And so, I actually don't think it is a crazy leap. And, and what Tate said, because we were both at opening together of that, of Goblin Oedipus, and she said, how cool is it that our, some of our characters are in that show? Like, you see Jocasta, and then you see Antigone, and there they are again. And how cool is that? How cool is that? It makes me want to, I've, so I've had this dream, I've had this dream of doing, like, a sequel, or a prequel, really, to Antigone. So, Aeschylus did another trilogy of Oedipus that are different stories than the Sophocles one. And the only one that survived is called Seven Against Thieves, and it's about the two brothers fighting for the, fighting at Thebes, at the gates of Thebes. And I'm, like, man, it makes me want to do, like, a trilogy of my own, and see the same actors throughout, and to just follow them. Like, I just think that would be so interesting to be able to be, like, oh, I'm, I see this person. Like, the crayon in Oedipus the King is very different than the crayon we see in Antigone. Very different person, because he's a different person. That's, like, 10 years before that, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's, yeah, I hope that our audiences get to see, get to see these characters evolve. And, you know, we have a Jocasta in Antigone, which is not normal. Jocasta is not usually there. But yeah, to see her, to see her in both as well, I think, is just, is really cool.
Phil Rickaby: There's something about seeing characters between plays like that. Many years ago, there was a production, a theatre company did the entire history cycle from Shakespeare. Oh, yeah. And did, like, same actors would, like, move from, like, through families, right? So, it would be, like, this actor plays this family, like that. It became, like, this, like, I know who this guy is, because I saw that before. Also, interestingly, like, the, the idea of doing Rosa Krantz and Guildenstern are dead in, in, in repertory with Hamlet. Like, to see these things, like, this is happening over here. And when they leave the stage, that's the play, that's what's happening. It's like a fascinating thing. I think there's a real gift when these things get to happen.
Ming Hudson: Oh, I love that. I just, I love that. I feel like it really, like, sparks some, some excitement. Like, it just makes me feel so excited. It just, because it feels more whole. Like, it is a, it is whole. All of these characters are more than these, you know, this one moment. A play is a moment. But there are more, so many moments attached. And, you know, as, as, like, good actors, we're supposed to come up with backstories and all of this jazz and whatever. But how cool is it when you actually get to see those backstories or see those side stories or see the thing that happened before or after that moment?
Phil Rickaby: Absolutely.
Ming Hudson: Absolutely.
Phil Rickaby: It's absolutely fun. You know, you, we were talking, when we first started talking, we were talking about the opening of Antigone and, like, how emotional that was and, like, trying to write this speech and getting emotional and that sort of thing. Now that the show is open, you've had that moment, and the show is, is running. Aside from the emotion of the, of, of the opening, is there something that you are most looking forward to an audience experiencing at this show?
Ming Hudson: Um, you know, I think for me, like, Kate has written this show in a way that is, like, very accessible. Like, the poet, the, the chorus has this beautiful heightened poetic language. And then we have these really colloquial, like, two, two and three hander scenes. And so I just hope that we've crafted something that the text can, like, bring an audience in. Like, there, there's, like, it's not as big of a gap as people are, are going to think it is going to be. And I hope that we have staged something where what they're seeing is, like, just constantly, like, images that are feeding their imagination. And so I guess, guess what I'm looking forward to is, like, we did all study Antigone in school, and maybe we saw some productions of it that weren't so great. And I just hope that this, this maybe just changes your mind a little bit about the story, about the Greeks, about what classical theatre can be. And I hope we've presented it in a way that feels new. So that maybe the next time you won't just be like, oh, that's just, like, a boring Greek show, and I'm not going to go see it. Like, I hope it re, re, this reimagination maybe, like, reawakens some excitement for people that have maybe got some preconceived notions of what classical Greek theatre is.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, we always, there, everybody has preconceived notions. When we talk about classical theatre of any kind, everybody has an idea of what they think it's going to be. And we're constantly kind of fighting against it, right? If you say that you're doing Shakespeare, everybody has their, this is the pumpkin pants and the ruff. And I was like, people have an idea of what it is that can be a barrier. And so anytime that we can bring them in and show them something different, where they can say, this is, no, this is now, it's then, but it's also now, is so powerful to share with an audience.
Ming Hudson: Yeah, yeah. And I think especially with a story like Antigone, which is like, my gosh, I hoped that we would have learned in the last, like, two and a half, a hundred years, that like, you know, like I've hoped, I've hoped we've learned about resistance and revolution and, and fighting for like, what is right. I hope we've learned something, but here we are, and we're doing it again. And it still means so much. And so I hope that people also leave feeling like, okay, well, what is it? What is, what can I do? Like, what is the thing that I can stand up for and, and say, no, that isn't right. And, but I'm going to do the right thing. Yeah. So that's, that's a, that's a hope that I, that's a hope that I have for folks as they, as they watch this production of the show. Amazing.
Phil Rickaby: Ming, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
Ming Hudson: My gosh, this was so much fun. Thank you so much.
Phil Rickaby: Thank you for listening to this episode of Stageworthy. I'm going to tell you about who my guest is next week, and it's an exciting guest. So please hold on because you want to know about this. But before I do, let me talk about Patreon because like I said earlier, I cannot make this show without the people who've chosen to back me on Patreon. It costs money to make a podcast, even though the podcast is given to you for free. There's so many things that cost money. It costs money to have a website. It costs money to have a place to host the audio files so they can be distributed to all the podcast listening places. Editing software costs money. Image creation costs money. Transcripts cost money. And I'm currently in the middle of a push to make sure that every episode on the Stageworthy website has a transcript. There are just over 200 episodes left as I'm recording this. And so that is a project that I'm working on. And that is a tedious little bit of work, but so necessary in terms of accessibility and just making sure that, you know, everything is accessible to everybody. So if you want to help me to do that, please go to Patreon.com slash Stageworthy and become a patron. Patrons get early access to episodes. We'll have some conversations about things that are happening in the world of theatre. And the more people who join, the more I will be able to offer to my patrons. So if that sounds interesting to you, if you want to be one of the people that helps me to make Stageworthy, go to Patreon.com slash Stageworthy and become a patron. My guest next week is the founder of Barn on the Beach, Christopher Gayes. And that is a conversation that I really enjoyed. So tune into that one next week on Stageworthy.