Phil Rickaby: Hello, welcome to Stageworthy. I'm Phil Rickaby and I'm the host and producer of this podcast. Stageworthy is Canada's theatre podcast, and on Stageworthy, I talk to theatre makers of all kinds, from actors to directors to playwrights. If they make theatre in Canada, I talk to them. Some of the people I talk to are household names and the rest are people that I really think you should get to know. Stay tuned to the end of the episode because I want to tell you about what's coming up next week. But this episode, I'm talking to Marla Torgerson. Marla is a Calgary-based singer-songwriter who's created her debut theatrical work, Sinner, and this is a conversation where we talk about her show, which is about leaving fundamentalism in religion and just finding your own way in the world without religion. It's about evangelical culture and things like that. I really enjoyed this conversation. We go all over the place while learning about Marla's show, Sinner. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I had having it. So here's my conversation with Marla Torgerson. Marla Torgerson, thank you so much for joining me. I am super excited about your show, Sinner, which you will be presenting at the Toronto Fringe and then at the Edinburgh Fringe. Right. Before we just, as we were just about to get started, you were saying that, you know, this is your first time doing a fringe. So you're not like, you're just ramping it up. You're going from the Toronto Fringe and then to the biggest fringe in the world, the Edinburgh Fringe.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: How do you feel about that? And what made you want to do that?
Marla Torgerson: You know, I wrote the show. I had been writing it for like, I don't even know, like eight years altogether. And I had been to Edinburgh a couple of times just like as a tourist and I had never been there during the festival, but I thought this is the big stage. Like I loved Fleabag and I loved, you know, Baby Reindeer when it came out and I was like, this is the goal. And I remember like writing on like grant applications and stuff that I didn't get. I remember writing like, this is the goal. But it always felt a bit like, like bullshit if I'm allowed to cuss. Like I, it always felt like really like the ideal, but you don't actually think you're going to get it. And so then I applied for so many like fringes and Toronto came first and I thought, perfect, great, you know, like perfect. And then Edinburgh came pretty soon afterwards and not only one company, like other companies were like, Hey, we're considering you just hold on, hold on. So I said yes to this one company finally. And then, yeah, it was crazy. I didn't think it would happen. Everyone who saw the show thought it would happen, but I was like, yeah, right. Like it's my first time. What do I know? Right.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. Well, why don't we jump into what the show is. Tell me about Sinner.
Marla Torgerson: Sinner is a one woman solo tragic comedy about breaking up with white Jesus. It's about growing up in the Bible belts in central Alberta and basically breaking away from everything that you were taught, the whole community and knowing that like as a woman or anybody who feels like they don't belong, you have a choice of either like staying small and sacrificing your own growth and evolution in order to belong or leaving everything behind. And it's like either keep the external peace and sacrifice your internal peace or cultivate, you know, what's happening inside and listen to that internal stirring and then leave. And there really wasn't another option. And so, you know, this story is about that. It's about finding your way out and all the things you kind of have to grieve along the way. And we try to do it in a way we, meaning me and everyone else who lives in here, I try to do it in such a way where we're laughing at everything and we're not taking anything all that seriously. And so, yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Now, one of the reasons why I was really excited about about to talk to you about this is as a as a as somebody who deconstructed their fundamentalist background, I'm always up for talking about this stuff and and the importance of that. Um, when OK, when, you know, it is very difficult to make the to to separate yourself because in a fundamentalist circle in most churches like that becomes that's your whole community. Right. And you to to leave means like you were saying, like, give up like your family, your friends and all this sort of stuff, because they don't they don't look kindly on people who leave the church. Was there a particular instigating moment for you?
Marla Torgerson: Yeah, I mean, it's very it's in the show like there was something that happened in my family that made me go like, oh, these people who are telling me I need to stay on this very black and white road and that this is the way, you know, they are full of shit, you know, like realizing that like the people who they're supposed to be setting the standard for you to live up to, they're just not like it's not there's something that's not real. So why am I holding up this standard to my own detriment? You know, if these people who are supposed to be the adults aren't, you know?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. No, the whole the whole thing. But you were talking about like how, you know, it's it's it there's there are these things that are meant to keep you feeling small and it is it affects it affects everybody. Right. Because the hierarchy is the the minister or the like the preacher, the whoever is also the sub preachers or whatever, and the leaders in the church and then the men of the church and then everybody below them. But they're even the men of the church. They're subservient to the people above them. And so it's like, don't get outside of your know your place. It's very much a know your place society, very restrictive rules.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah. And I mean, I think if you're a dude, if you're a man in the church, you are told you're a soldier in the Lord's army. You are going to have you know, you're you deserve like your inheritance is going to be you know, you'll have a wife, you'll have a you'll have all of these things. And and all you have to do is be obedient, you know, and then you'll get to be an inheritor, a co-inheritor of the children of the kingdom of God. And I think that women are told that if they work hard enough and they don't ask for anything and if they give and if they're quiet and obedient, then they will get called virtuous. Right. Whether it's like Proverbs 31 being like, hey, like every girl in the evangelical church is like, be a Proverbs 31 woman. What does Proverbs 31 say? It says work. Do get your own stuff like King Solomon is saying, hey, girl, buy your own land and plant a vineyard. So it's like the men are subservient to the other men, because I think. It seems to me and there may be I'm sure there will be men that, you know, have a gripe about this, but it seems to me that a lot of men really like being told what to do. Tell me what to do. I am a soldier in the Lord's army. Yes, sir. Like, I love that. Whereas a lot of women when whether it's like postmenopausal or women who just kind of have an awakening at some point, they're like. They're very subversive, and so if you teach a woman that her virtue is being silent and working hard and being like the engine, the fascia of the body of Christ, then you can kind of like subvert that power and that like the if a woman starts to privatize her own energy and her own kind of magic, if she starts to privatize it, it really can make the whole system fall apart. Whereas men easily are. It seems to me they're like, yes, tell me what to do. Let me turn my brain off and be told I'm a good boy for doing A plus B plus C.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, I fully agree with that. I mean, the the whole thing is about, you know, it's the enforcement of a patriarchy and the patriarchy means that you follow the rules and you do what you're told. And often what you're told is, you know, be a man, do the thing, like all these sorts of things that are just like so restrictive. And also. The whole, you know, the evangelical system tells men, like you say, to be, you know, be a soldier for Christ, which is not something that was ever something that Christ said in the Bible, like if you read the Bible, there's none of that. So it's like this is like it's all a thing that's manufactured by a patriarchy that wants you to follow.
Marla Torgerson: Well, and it's also like, don't do any of your own research, don't do any of your own study, like just listen to what's being disseminated through Pastor Bill. And if Pastor Bill is saying something you don't agree with, you're probably getting it wrong. So just like be cool. And so like listening to like thinking about like I call him in the show, I call him Feminist Josh, which is like Yeshua, right? Yeshua is real. Yeshua in Aramaic is Joshua, so not Jesus. It's not until we go through the Greek and really with the Apostle Paul, who's really like that's his Christian drag name is Paul, his real name is Saul. So when we talk about Feminist Josh, who was this like Palestinian, Jewish, socialist, feminist, like this guy, Christ, if we believe that he was a literal person, we're just assuming that we'll just allow that to be. And that's another discussion. But that guy was a vibe like women were in his ministry with him. Some of them like gave money to support his ministry. They were alongside of him. He wasn't shaming women. Like, in fact, it was the opposite. Like he's like, oh, girl, like you're fucking somebody that is not your husband. And it's not even the first guy that you fuck that's not your husband. But instead of being like, shame on you, stone her. He's like, you silly goose, stop it. You know, and we we love that. And then what does he say? He doesn't say that woman caused you to stumble. So she should stop being a whore. He said, if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out, Brad, get a hold of yourself. So like that's the thing. It's like all of these evangelicals with their biblical literalism. And yet nobody's walking around with a fucking eye patch.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're you're right about, you know, the the the the so many people who say that they are Christian do not read the Bible, like you're saying. They're just like they get everything from Pastor Tom or whatever his name is. And they and he's the one that interprets the the Bible for them. And they regurgitate what he says. Or if they do read it, they read it based on what they've been told. Right. So that's their interpretation of it. Like it lacks any kind of any kind of thought.
Marla Torgerson: Well, right. And I think we're so taught not to push back. Like when I was in Bible college, I would come back to my church of origin and I would be like writing because I'm a pain in the ass. I would be writing notes. I would be writing not almost like prayer requests, little pieces of paper that were in the back of the pews. I would take it out and be like, dear Pastor Virgil, Virg the clergy. I would say like, hey, you said this about this. And actually, this is kind of exegetically blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They loved it. They were like, thank you. You're so wise and useful.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, because because they love the questions, right? They love they love. You can ask questions until you don't accept the answer. Right. And so you start asking like smart questions, right? Like, what does it really say? Why this? If that, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Marla Torgerson: That same pastor at one point told me like he's like, so if you don't like what's happening here, you can go until I'm gone and then you can come back. And I remember just being like confused. But yeah, I mean, it's a wild ride as a as a big mouth woman in the evangelical church and like trying to go like, well, if I want to get married like I'm supposed to and I want to get all the shoulds accomplished so that I have value in the world and I'm a full person, then I have to do all of these things. But I don't know how, because it's not my nature, you know?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, yeah. The the the listen, I think that the evangelical church is, you know, now that I've been out of it for like 20 years and I feel like I probably no longer than 20 years, but I feel like only within the last 10 have I been able to like. Finally, shake. Enough of the indoctrination off. Yeah, to be able to like. Function as a. Thinking person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, it's funny how that happens.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah, it's really funny. It's funny to like see a TV show that has like two guys kissing and then realize in this like moment of like internal like that you still have places that inside of yourself that are colonized by that by that ideology. And I'm the same as you. And it's just the last like five or 10 years that like I feel pretty, you know, I feel I feel like I've exercised all of the demons, you know. But it's wild to think like I remember thinking people who are not Christians, why? Why are they nice? They have no reason to be. Why are they good people? They have no reason to be like there wasn't this fear of hell and this like scoreboard in the sky that, you know, is keeping them in line. And now I feel the exact opposite, where I'm like, oh, you're only being nice to me because, you know, because Santa upstairs is holding something over your head, you know?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, I remember. It's funny because you do you do start to look at people. Who are evangelical or like religious in a different way than you used to. Taylor Tomlinson in one of her acts talked about like when she sees her friends becoming Christian, it's like watching somebody get back together with the abusive boyfriend you used to have, like, you know, like.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah, totally.
Phil Rickaby: And I remember I was like I was like encountering somebody who they like watching the thing and they were like, yeah, I'm Christian. And this and the other. Then they said a phrase which I found particularly triggering, which was they said Christ is king. And I was like, oof, I was like had a reaction. And my girlfriend was like, why does why does that make you react? And I was kind of I'm still kind of unpacking everything behind why I reacted so so so viscerally to that phrase. But also part of it is that some of the worst people I know have that on their. Like social media profiles.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah, I think it's such a it's hard to explain. So I have a very like like you, a very visceral reaction. And I guess my first thing I think is grow up. Really? Are we still doing this? Like, are we still doing this in twenty twenty six? She is she still around, Sofia? That's of course in the beginning was the word and the word, you know, that's you know, that's yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Marla Torgerson: So, you know, that's so the original was not logos. It was Sofia. So really, Jesus is a they them anyway.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, if you want to get into it, you can talk about all the things that are stripped of the Bible. You know, God had a wife, you know, and all this sort of stuff.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: And the important role of women is there. If you know how to look for the breadcrumbs, but it's been sliced out of the Bible and motherfuckers just ruin everything. I mean, Paul sort of started it, right? Paul, Paul started it or no. Actually, it may be the person who is posing as Paul, but it gets all very messy in there, right?
Marla Torgerson: No, Paul is definitely she she has this week. Paul, Paul needs to take a big breath like a girl. Like, you know that Paul and Barnabas were crashing grinder every 100 percent, 100 every time. And then Barney Barnabas just aged out. And Paul's like, I'm more into twinks. So he ended up with Silas. And then they also they're like they got to Rome and they were like, girl, like it was certified bachelors all the way around.
Phil Rickaby: 100. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, so a lot of people who, you know, you deconstruct your faith and it becomes it is a deconstruction. We'll we'll get into that in a little bit. But it can be a very serious thing, like that whole process. And it can be painful and it can be awkward and it can be weird. But in your play Sinner, you've said it's a tragic comedy about breaking up with white Jesus. So how did you come to the comedy?
Marla Torgerson: Well, here's the thing. I think that traumatized kids sometimes when you're trying to draw blood away from what hurts, you create a humor tumor, right? Like you create something in yourself where you're very funny and you know how to like make the scary people in your family laugh or you know how to like gauge your audience and figure out the way to soften things or make things less scary through being making people laugh. And I was that dancing clown. I think a lot of, you know, sensitive kids, you know, it's your only way of like coping with it. So that's a coping mechanism for me. Hilary McBride is my therapist. She's been my therapist for like 12 years. And she's fucking amazing. And I remember the first day that I made a joke in therapy and she didn't laugh. And she's like, I know that this is your way of coping. And so I'm going to teach you that. I'm not going to laugh at your jokes, which I'm like, well done. How are you doing that? I'm hilarious. But she's like, I'm not going to laugh at your jokes because I need you to know that I still am going to be here for you. And I'm still going to stay connected to you, even if you're not funny. So I really think. Like what is Richard Rohr? Father Richard Rohr says the true self is unoffendable. So I test that theory in my show and I use this kind of like outsized humor that I have to go, why is your God so sensitive? Like, why is he such a fucking baby about his name? About all the he's jealous. He's got this like he's such a sensitive baby. Like, why are we all such like this is not that serious. And if we can laugh about something. It feels like one of the last steps of integration, you know, to go like none of this is that serious. This is all this big cosmic joke. You know, if you believe what I believe, then we're all these kind of like souls, these like universal consciousnesses that are in these meat suits, just trying, just playing a game. Right. There's nothing that serious. And it's only when my ego gets attached to something and resists that I am miserable. So I really want to go, OK, what is it that still offends me and why? You know, in the same way that you're saying, like, what triggers you? My thing is like I make jokes like this is one of my pieces of merch. Like, can you see that? So it's a pin and he has a scrunchie because it's the desert. So, you know, he has long hair anyway. And my thing is like, like, why are. If there is if there is a one God, if there is one God. And he, she, they created the universe. Why are they so fucking sensitive? Why is it that we have to be so careful with our verbiage and with our behavior, and we have to only eat certain things and only do certain things, only wear certain things? What a big fucking baby. So my thing is, we should be able to joke about everything because it creates connection and it makes us. It softens us, you know?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, yeah, it is. The the the whole like the idea of, you know, yes, God is perfect, but also really jealous and sometimes really kind of angry about things and sometimes kind of abusive. And and he turned that woman into salt once because she looked behind her and like all of these things. And it's like you said, perfect.
Marla Torgerson: Yes. That's right. And like God, our father. But like if your earthly father. My my earthly father is not a perfect man, as you will see in the show. But if my earthly father acted the way that Old Testament pre lobotomy God acted. He will go to jail. He will go to jail. Yeah. So I'm like, we're not talking like post lobotomy. The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. Not him. O.T. O.G. O.T. God. Come on.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, yeah. I was looking online and of course, because the show as it is, hasn't been performed yet. There are a few testimonials from people who've seen workshop performances that I was able to find. And so this show draws a direct line from fundamentalist evangelical upbringing to the internal voice that outlasts the community itself. What is that voice for you?
Marla Torgerson: I think for me, the the voice inside of me that is the continuity, the through line. Is the universe that that that resonance that you feel at Bible camp, that resonance that you feel at a worship service where you're raising your hands and crying and you feel it like you. It's real. You're like, I am in this and God is real. And, you know, that through line. Reading a cartoli, a new earth. Or listening to the liturgy podcast with Pete Holmes, where it's episode two of him being there and him talking about non dualism, that resonance that happens where you're like your internal knowing is like. This is it's like a warm bath. That is the through line. And so now I'm waiting for that. And I'm going like, OK, you know, where is that? And so that's the that's the thing. I mean, it's ironic now, because if I was in a worship service like that, I would probably burst into flames at this point. But back then it was like that was the thing. Like in Red Deer, you go to crosswalk and all the cute boys are playing on stage and the songs are so good. And you're all like, and the God of Peace will soon crush it underneath your feet. Like. Ten out of ten.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, were you was it was you were you in a megachurch in Red Deer?
Marla Torgerson: No, there were not megachurches yet.
Phil Rickaby: OK.
Marla Torgerson: When I was a kid. So I grew up in the Alliance Church in Red Deer.
Phil Rickaby: Oh, I did some time in the Alliance Church. You did some time.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah, I. Yeah. Ours was she was a messy bitch. That one. Yeah. We had we had some very interesting scandals. So, yeah. So I think now my parents go to the. Yeah. Now, yeah. My parents go to the megachurch there now. And it's it's a missionary church, technically. But yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I was I was in Red Deer in 2022 or three. And I was I drove by. I had to drive by the megachurch there every day. And something in me is always like megachurches shouldn't exist. Like megachurches should not exist.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah. Yeah. It's the modernity of we're going to build it so it's ugly and it looks like a Costco, right? Like you can't have the ego of, you know, having this being it, having it be beautiful. Right. Like we don't want to spend money on that. We'll spend money on a slide to go from the children's part back down to the foyer. But we will not make it beautiful because modernity says none of that matters. And you're like, right, ma'am. Well, also, you have a huge addiction problem in your town. Massive addiction problem. Nothing. They don't do anything. I know they do. As for a fact, I know that they do. But you can do more like the amount of money that y'all make.
Phil Rickaby: Well, that's why I say that megachurches shouldn't exist, is like if you have the money to build that church, that money should be going somewhere else. It should be going to food programs. It should be going to housing. It should be going to drug programs. It should be going to. It should be going to the least of these. When you do this.
Marla Torgerson: No, because white capitalist Jesus disagrees. White capitalist Jesus wants you to have a boat. He wants you to have a mansion. He wants you. Yeah, white capitalist Jesus. You're expecting a harvest. When I went to this black gospel church on the military base in Korea, there was a song of theirs. It was like, I'm expecting a harvest and it's going to rain in my life. And it was everything was about getting your money from God, getting your bag. And that's really what it's about. Evangelicalism. That's why that's why the capitalist elites love evangelicalism, because capitalist Jesus is like, you deserve it. You deserve it. In fact, the faithful, they can be tax evaders because we are. And it's it's one of those things like it's wild. So, yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, because it's the the co-option of the prosperity gospel, which has become the Bible, the prosperity gospel, where the truly faithful get rewarded with money and planes and mansions and all this stuff. And the rest, if you didn't get that, then you weren't faithful enough.
Marla Torgerson: Exactly. Yeah. Prosperity gospel. I yeah, it's one of those things like I I don't see. I've always said, like, to me, having being rich like that is evidence of your lack of faith, because if you were like Christ, who probably stank and was disgusting with all of his like assholes that followed him, like if you were like Yeshua, you would be and you had faith. You would go. The Bible actually says that what I give will be multiplied, that what I that I that what I give is evidence of my faith. And if you believed that God was going to take care of you and that what happened regardless was God's will and to help you become a better person and a better follower and a better then you would give everything with both your hands like water, like you would hold everything with an open hand. And it's this fearful like, you know, we're right and you're wrong. And we have all this money. And, you know, it all is the same. It's this like fearful, egoic, like, yeah, it's it's wild that no one seems to be able to to see it.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, it's the fear that gets me in in the church. It's the fear of the other. It's the fear because that is very fear and anger, very motivating. And anger often comes from fear. So if you can keep people afraid of the other or something they don't understand, then you have more power over them. And the church is about power so we can get more money to build another megachurch.
Marla Torgerson: That's right. Well, and if I can go to this uncomfortable place and dig a well as a 16 year old or build a building as a 16 year old, then I can I'm not going to send money so that they can hire their own people and their own economy can benefit. I'm going to send these 16 year olds and we're going to go to this place with melanated people and we're going to take lots of photos and we're going to put them all up on the wall in our sanctuary. And then we're going to feel so good about it. You know why? Because they're staying over there and we've done our part. Check, check, check. And it's just like this, like, I'm sorry, colonialism. Really? Like, really? So I don't know. It's to me, it blows my mind.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, I mean. Yeah, absolutely. And and the shows this show, your show, it seems to have had an effect on a lot of people who've seen it. Yeah. Some people have described it as theatrical therapy. Is that something you're comfortable with? Or how do you manage that kind of thing?
Marla Torgerson: I have I've had a lot of therapy myself. I am not a therapist. But like at the end of the show, I've had a lot of like boomer women especially come up and like sob in my arms and tell me their secrets and stuff. And a lot of people like I've had people write me very long messages about, you know, the catharsis that they have found. And I guess therapy capital T. No, but also like. I am not. I am not without nuance. And when I first wrote this show, when the first script was finished, it was like I was burning it down. It was like I was like, fuck you. Like it was it came from a very triggered place where I just wanted my pound of flesh. And, you know, I was like, nuance for what? You know, and then during covid, like I started reading, like I read like Dance of the Dissonant Daughter and like started reading all of these books and really tried to humanize people. Because people are people regardless. And to not be the other side of that coin, right? To not be just a woowoo, you know, fundamentalist on the other side. That's like policing language and super judgmental and whatever. But rather to get to the place where there's nuance. And I think that's the thing about when you say like therapy. I've really tried to as much as I do say things at times that are meant to be like a rapier between your ribs to go like, hey. Where are you on this? Wake up. I'm also nothing is by accident. There's a lot of intentionality there. And I do know that there will be triggering themes because that's life like life is triggering, like and honestly, boring otherwise. So, yes. Am I a therapist? No, but people are going to be activated. And my hope, my prayer is that I was deft enough. I was, you know, that my nuance is there. My balance is there enough that to kind of like give them a soft place to fall in the comedy. So to do something that is hard to hard to sit with, but then also to balance it. That's why we need the comedy. Right. Without that balance, it's like Depresso Espresso toaster in the tub after the show, right?
Phil Rickaby: Well, that does make it theatre, right? Because theatre, if it's a serious topic, you have to balance it out with something right the other way. And it can't all be jokes because it's got to be. You got to have something a little with a little weight to it. It's that that makes it theatre. Before I get into a little bit about more about you outside of the show, I do want to ask about the fact that this is specifically a Canadian evangelical story. Yes. What does that mean to you?
Marla Torgerson: Well, my grandpa and my dad's brother were both American preachers, and I've lived in the States and it's different. And I and I would like I said, I was in I was in a gospel church on a military base, so I've seen the different demographics. The Canadian, as much as the Venn diagram is like almost a circle with the Canadian Bible Belt, it's not like, for example, thinness. The waspiness of Canadian white evangelical women demanding the obedience of physical thinness is not something that the evangelicals in most of the South are tasked with. You know, and it's the it's very different. I always say, like, the Canadian Bible Belt is like a thin nineties belt, right? It doesn't carry any of the weight that the American one does, you know. And so it's the same. It's a Bible belt, but she doesn't have political power, really. She's not you know, she's not carrying the weight of the national identity. But the crazy still exists, you know.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, it kind of goes hand in hand with with the evangelical church in a lot of ways, like that kind of. I remember when I was in it, the idea of make sure that, you know, if you're on the subway, read a Bible so that somebody will. Well, what is that you're reading? And then you will get to witness to them like people don't know a Bible when they see one, which is part of the evangelical delusion, like people don't know what God is. People don't haven't heard of Jesus until you tell them. But I can I can see them on the subway or in a in a on an airplane. And they're there with their Bible. They've got it open.
Marla Torgerson: It's all just so gross and performative.
Phil Rickaby: It's all about the performative.
Marla Torgerson: Of course. Of course. Well, and it's the same people that they pray before their meal and they tip 10%. And you're like death penalty. You're like jail time immediately, you know. So that's the thing, like all of the performative bullshit. I mean, I was that right. Like when I used to see the people with like the big gory signs by a by an abortion clinic when I was like 16, I was like, I want to do that.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Marla Torgerson: And now I want to yell at them.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Marla Torgerson: You know, so. Yeah, it's it's it's a wild. I always am like I said to a girl once, actually, because I live on 17th in Calgary and they're there sometimes right in front of my place. And I said to a girl, I'm like, look, you're going to get your frontal lobe all like developed and you're going to regret this. You're going to feel really dumb. You're going to feel really embarrassed that you were yelling at people with this dolphin embryo photo that you're holding. It's yeah. Yeah. So it is a really Canadian show in that like, yes, there's a ton of overlap with the Americans, but some of our female ideals are different. And. Yeah, it's. Yeah, the Alberta Bible belts. And honestly, there's so much overlap with like the Mormon fundamentalists and like every fundamentalist faith can definitely like sink their teeth into this. But it's a uniquely Canadian story. You know?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Now, this is your first theatrical project. This is your first theatre anything. So what were what you were a musician previous to that, you're a songwriter. What is your what's your your your artistic background? Before we get into, like, how you decided to write a play out of all of this?
Marla Torgerson: Well, I, I, I'm an opera girly. Like I have a bachelor's degree in classical voice, and I've been a singer songwriter for like, I don't know, 20 years, 15, 20 years. And like I have created all of these basically expensive coasters musically. And and I've just been at the place where I thought to myself, well, first of all, my mentor, my best friend in Atlanta and my mentor from L.A., they both were like, you need to find a way. They're like, a lot of people can sing. A lot of people can, you know, but they're like, but you have this other thing. You have this humor. You have this this other thing that you have to offer, like the way that you speak, the way that you're basically they're like, you are a weirdo, like monetize it. I'm like, fair. And so I started a YouTube channel for a while and then I burnt myself out. And it just it all started to kind of become clear. And like I I've written and performed all over the world. And my recent my most recent project was with these like like my drummer was J.R. Robinson, who is the most recorded drummer on earth. Like he did off the wall with Michael Jackson. Like it was that kind of project, like huge. And but the thing is, I'm old and opinionated and female and not opinionated in like an abrasive way, necessarily, but just in a way where I'm not going to be easily exploited. And so I'm like, OK, where are they going to appreciate and love me for my bigness and appreciate the poeticism and the humor and the irreverence and the big vocal? And I'm like, theatre, theatre. So it all just kind of came together. Like my best friend, Lexi, she was very much like. Like, put this all together. And so I started writing it when I was living in Seville before the pandemic. I was I wrote it. I wrote the full script in like three weeks. Like it just poured out like 30000 words. And it all just felt so easy. Like there was something about it that just felt on a universal level. Yeah, it just felt easy. And I had a whole I had tons of songs that I had written over the years that I knew were really good. And then honestly, when I had to write the like comedic songs, I could I wrote them all like in like 45 minutes each. Like it all happened so quickly. And the road has just risen up to meet the work in a way that I've never experienced. And I'm in control. There isn't some dude who paid for something, who now has an expectation of me or who, you know, now it's time to pay for marketing. And he's like. So, yeah, that's that's the long answer is that I, I was a I'm a singer songwriter and I've done a lot of work, but I got to the place where. I was never willing to pay the piper to bring it to the next level. And what I know about my theatre friends is that my personality and my grit and bringing everything together gives me something that's actually pretty sought after in this community.
Phil Rickaby: What was it about the story of of the Evangelical Church deconstructing faith and all and, you know, breaking up with white Jesus? What was it that felt theatrical to you? What was it like as you were thinking, like, I, you know, I want to do something theatrical. What was it about these things that felt like, oh, this is the theatrical thing I need to do?
Marla Torgerson: Well, the original script was. Very long, like it was way it was most of my life, like it was all the way through, like coming back to North America and dating and all of this stuff. And then when I was trying to hone it down to its essential oil, I was like, what is the center of this? The center conflict and the pivot and the mental breakdown was leaving behind Christianity. But then when I was thinking about it and I had to create like a subtitle, I'm like, well, I'm not I don't want people who still have a relationship or who have the kind of who have a spiritual life that is kind of fluid and malleable to think that this is a pound of flesh, kind of a thing. And so the white Jesus part of it was like, no, no, it's this very specific thing. And being in the world right now where America is such a mess and white Jesus is really reigning supreme, I really wanted to it really became clear to me that like this part of my story, I wish I had had a story like this when I was going through it. But there wasn't like there wasn't anybody talking about deconstruction when I was deconstructing. And so, you know, somebody making fun of things, some of the some of the jokes that I make in the show would have really offended me like during my deconstruction. But saying at the beginning of the show, like the first slides that Father Richard Rohr quote is there to go like. Just pay attention to that. And so this part of my life. This part of my life that was the deconstruction is the difference between getting to be this person that I am right now, which is she's great. She's like and the person that I would have become if somebody had proposed to me in Bible college and I had become a pastor. So it's the pivot.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. As soon as you said if somebody had proposed to me in college, I was like, whoa, because we all like if you were in. Like when I was in when I was in it, it was about like, OK, so, you know, you go to college, but it'd be great if you go to UBC, if you go to to to the Upper Canada Bible Trinity, whatever it was, you go to go to college and study the Bible, go to Bible college, and then you can become a preacher. If you don't do that, well, at least you've studied the Bible. Right. The thing that I don't recall anybody coming out of those programs with was the kind of faith shaking reaction that people I know who went to seminary came out with. Like, oh, that's interesting. My I had a friend who was like, I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to take a theology course at the seminary. And my dad took a theology course when he was going to seminary. And they both had this same reaction because there would be this like eye opening, like they never told us this. This has been hidden from us. This is like I've been lied to my whole life about what's actually in the Bible. And then somebody goes, of course, that's all great and all. But no church will let you preach that. Right. Oh, you can never say that in a church. You can never say that on the pulpit. And it was like, oh, wow. Right, because the congregation will riot if you tell them the truth.
Marla Torgerson: How sad. That's so to me, like to think about. How could you go on to be a pastor? How could you go on to feel like, OK, I know this. I know this truth, especially teaching the Pauline epistles, like especially teaching the work of Paul through the evangelical lens, which is, of course, Paul says some stuff that's great. But the evangelical pastors are talking about women through a Pauline lens. And I'm like, but you know better, you know, especially these men, if they have daughters, if they have, you know, because a lot of these men can't relate to women because they're people, but they can only relate to them as an écoutrement of themselves. Yes. Yes.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Marla Torgerson: So I don't know how you go through your life like that, how you go through your life knowing the truth, but disseminating something else. That's wild.
Phil Rickaby: I know. I know how my I know how my dad did it. I know how my dad did it in his church. And that was he would slide these these these things into the sermon because he was in an Anglican church. So it wasn't like evangelical, just flip a few things.
Marla Torgerson: Right. Anglicans, they have their more serious churches and then they have their what I call their gluten free churches.
Phil Rickaby: Yep. Yeah.
Marla Torgerson: Right. Where they're like, it's like light, right? We're like our queer friends and everybody can go there and feel cool and kosh. But then you go down the street to the other Anglican church and she's serious.
Phil Rickaby: Oh, for sure.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah, that's wild. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. The other thing I remember, the thing that I was I was thinking of, you were talking about, like when you were deconstructing, it was like it was because there was no no information. It wasn't in the conversation. I totally relate to that because I'm an old man. When I was deconstructing, there were no there was no like the Internet was new, right? Like there was nothing for me to like talk to other people who were doing the same thing. It was entirely I had to do it on my own, which was there were no resources, you know? It's hard to do that way. It takes a long time.
Marla Torgerson: Absolutely. Well, and I think that like the thing for me, too, was going to Bible college. Everybody I knew when I went to Korea after Bible college, everybody I knew was married. Everybody I knew was having kids. You know, everyone I knew was on a very distinct, specific path. And and it was the path that my parents would have preferred me be on. And so, you know, it was like I'm already on this weird path. And then something happened in the family that was so jarring that it shook the very foundations. And I was like, I. Like, what am I doing like? And so it was just being adrift, I think it's it was. Yeah, I can't really explain it other than just like I think I articulate it pretty well in the show, but I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I it was there was no one else that I saw. There was people who I was like, you are going to hell. You see any you Christmas and Easter Christian, you're going to hell. And then realizing everything that I did that I would have condemned other people for. Brought me into a more connective place, into a more empathetic, universal space where I really wanted to be better. But when it was I have the I have the market cornered on truth and I'm better because I'm an evangelical and I'm one of the hundred and forty four thousand that's going to get to go to heaven and have a roller skating pizza party with white Jesus. You know, either I'm that or I'm a sinner who does all the sin things and I am like everybody else. And that sucks. I'm an enneagram for that sucks. So my thing is like. It was one or the other. You're black and white, but you don't get to grow and you have to just give all of your goodness to everyone else so they get to grow and work your ass off as a woman. Or you can have a universal connection because you are flawed and you are not in denial and you're telling the truth and you're vulnerable and you are nuanced and there is gray. You know, you can't have both. So this option, after I sinned my very first sin that counts, I was like, you know, those sins, you know, those sins, those sins that are the real sins. Once I did my first real sin at 22 in South Korea, I was like, OK, well, that's the first petal of my my beauty and the beast sinner rose, you know, and once all the petals are gone, then I'm just a sinner and there's no going back. So, yeah, it was nobody taught me, but I felt that transition of like shit. Now I'm like everybody else. And that is there's something really warm and resonant about that. And there's something pretty mortifying to your ego about that, where you're like, well, shit, I really liked being better like this sucks.
Phil Rickaby: You know, I mean, at first at first, I definitely felt that way. And I I don't like being better now. It's like I like being like everybody else. You know what I mean?
Marla Torgerson: Yeah, well, yeah, and my thing is. I when I'm around people who were raised like you and I were raised and I come in with this wide open energy and I come in with this saying all the things and making all the jokes and being myself. It gives everybody permission. It's a permission structure for you. If you fuck up, you're still safe with me. If you do something that even that I don't love, there's still a safe place here. And so that's a thing. Like I have been like my partner is like sometimes, Marla, you're the idiot and sometimes you're the oracle. And he's like being able to be both to make the jokes and set the the emotional thermostat like you did in your codependency. In a way that people feel like they can relax and be themselves is the opposite of what I did when I was a puritanical asshole.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Marla Torgerson: So I have penance to make up, too. So, you know, so I think that's where we are.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could go on about this stuff for a long time. But, you know, you know, I mean, because you're talking about like the sage and also kind of the fool, which sort of also falls into there's this concept of Christ, the clown that a few people will follow. And that sort of like leads into like the God, the musical godspell sort of plays with Christ, the clown, that sort of thing. And it encompasses all of these all of these these things, which, again, are not white. Colonial. Corporate Jesus, you know? Right. Yeah. I do want to ask about the process of the development of this show, because I did find, you know, some references to some workshops where how did that work? Where did you do that and what was the reaction?
Marla Torgerson: So I first so the very first time I ever did this show ever in public was last year. Like it's she's she's new. She's a baby. And it was three and a half hours long. And I did it in Georgia. My friend has a best friend that I was talking about before. She has a something called the music barn and a play in Chattahoochee Hills. And so we just invited her little community that like she lives in this little this little town and we just invited people to come. And I just did a bunch of shows over and over and over and over again and then talked to people afterwards. And the very first time I ever did the show. The lights went up and everyone was sobbing. And I was like, what? And like and we talked like they talked about it like these women all had this this trauma response to it, not in a way that was like, you know, but in a way that just they felt like they were cracked open in a way to kind of address some things. We talked about some things and it was, you know, and this is like we're talking we're almost at four hours and they are with me like they're like tuned in. So I did that. And then I and my friend Margo, who was Mimi on Rent for a while in Rent, she was like she was there and she goes, my advice is go back to Calgary. Find somewhere that will let you do the show like twice a week for a month. And so I went to the center. I was I started calling all the places and I called the center, the Calgary Center for Spiritual Living. And it's this place off of Blackfoot Trail. They have this great room with like pew chairs and like all the things. And they have an amazing band, like so good. Their music is fantastic. And I talked to their like clergy and they were like, that sounds like it's right up our alley, actually. And so we organized it so that their church would come in, like they would sign up and they would come in and watch. And then I had a dramaturge here, Laura Jones is her name. And she was so brilliant because I had no fucking idea what I was doing. She was like, I'm going to take all the feedback and I'm going to compile it and I'm going to protect your feelings. And I'm going to you know, we're going to do some emotional, you know, boundaries because it's still really fresh for me, too. And so, yes, we did it over a month. It was last August. We did it all month and then into September. And then midway through September, we did two big shows like with like gospel choir members and a full band and whatever. But everything before that was just me and tracks and guitar and piano by myself. Yeah. And the feedback was fabulous. I did end up it was crazy, actually. After one of the shows, this lady started kind of ripping me apart. And then she said, by the way, I am a teacher. I am a professor at Prairie Bible College. And I know that's the place you were talking about in the show. And she was just like and then I was like, oh. OK, got it. And honestly, like she gave me a gift because I'm like, OK, I can't control. I can't. My codependence wants to watch every reaction and make sure that my jokes are landing and make sure that they're not too hurt and make sure that everything's OK. But I need it to be. I'm giving this to you. And what happens after that is none of my business. You know, and all I can do is curate it in a way that feels like I found that resonant spot, you know, and that's been hard. That's been really hard for me. Like, oh, my God.
Phil Rickaby: So do you feel that you're still working on that?
Marla Torgerson: Of course, of course. Like my friend, I was just back down there. I was just back down in Georgia a couple of weeks ago now. And my friend Margo again watched, watched the show where it is. And because I'm trying to keep the 90 minute in the 90 minute and Edinburgh is 60 minutes. So I'm like, oh, my God, just anyway. So she was she's like, stop reiterating your jokes. Stop doubling and tripling down. And like, you know, like if they're not getting it, let them not get it. And continue. She's like, because some of your your jokes are very funny, but people just they won't get them or maybe they'll get them later. But it's not like but don't waste your time asking for a permission structure from people like going like, hey, but did you catch that like? You know, instead, just let it go. And that's hard for me. I mean, it's the same reason why my parents don't know about the show. Right. My parents don't know. And because I don't want to, I need to learn. How to not be codependent and not to go not to manage the emotions of these people, but instead to go like, here you go. Like when I first did it, the first two, two or three times I did the show. Afterwards, I thought, OK, I've got everything. I've integrated like this work that I've done for integration. I'm I'm good. I never have to do this again. Mission accomplished. And then my therapist was like, well, yeah, good. You've got it. And now it's a gift you're giving to other people and it's not yours anymore and you're giving it away. And that's so that like that transition, I think, is where I'm probably 80, 75 percent of the way through where I'm like now it's for you and it's something I'm giving to you in its entirety. And it's not my problem anymore. And, you know, I don't know, but that's hard. That's really hard for me. Like that's that part of me. She's still sensitive, like she still feels vulnerable when other people. And I mean, it's a kiddo, right? It's the kiddo inside of you that like when your dad's mad, you feel unsafe, you know, because it is an existential fucking threat. And so when other people, when you're really vulnerable to them and they're hurt or they're mad, it feels like that. It's really hard to stay present and go like. Breathe through it, we're good and not go into that kiddo place that's like, oh, I'm really vulnerable and these people are upset and I need to fix it. Like that's a tough place to find.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, the one of the things that, you know, you're doing this show at the Toronto Fringe and, you know, here in Toronto, we have evangelical churches, we have people who are standing on the street corner and they're preaching, they're doing their thing. We have a bit of we have a really an evangelical setting. You're doing this show and there are people who may come who are part of that. In the UK, there is less of an evangelical movement. How do you feel? Because, you know, you've done this in Calgary. You're going to do that in Toronto, where there is like a tradition of evangelical churches and then going to Edinburgh, where if there is, it's quite small. What is how do you see that trajectory for yourself and and bringing this show to people of varying experiences with the evangelical movement?
Marla Torgerson: Well, the first song of the show is called the Opera Trigger Warning, and it's a it's a foray, like it's foray, but of course, rewritten. And it's basically meant and it's like put up like raise your hand if you consider yourself, you know, a fundamentalist, a musical theatre nerd, a man or a boomer. Right. You're going to be offended. So you've been warned, so shut the fuck up. You know, sorry, you know, and so am I waiting for the Westboro Baptist people to send me death threats at some point? You know, but and what and what you're offended. What's new? Everything fucking offends you. So and what?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Marla Torgerson: You know?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. So honestly, at this point, like for me, when I was doing my show, the commandment, which had a lot of it was about an atheist who finds out that he was chosen by God to deliver the 12th commandment. And, you know, I was waiting for I was waiting for somebody to get upset with it, to protest it, mostly because I thought that would be great publicity, you know?
Marla Torgerson: Oh, my God.
Phil Rickaby: Yes. Please pick up my show.
Marla Torgerson: I know. Yeah. I mean, I that at some point, I believe will probably happen. The people who I only had one person come to me and say, well, no, that's not true. At one of my things here in Calgary, I did have a man or no woman say because at that time I had a slide talking about that was like the body of Christ. And then it had an arrow pointing to the penis. And it was like, which is obviously male. Right. So and then the one that had somebody be like, you put up. Hey, she she was from the roaring 20s. She was like, hey, you put it, you put an arrow by Jesus's penis. I don't like that. And that offends me. And Jesus's penis is not a beeswax. That was not that's not a direct quote, but that was the energy she was bringing. And I and so, yeah, I had to kind of be like, so like I had to just kind of like whatever. And then when I was in Atlanta, I had a man come up to me and be like, you're really like you're hard on men in this. Like this is really like, am I supposed to apologize for being a man? And I was like, are you OK?
Phil Rickaby: He was he was obviously very triggered.
Marla Torgerson: Oh, my God. Yeah. And I'm like, like, I'm not going to do the math for you as to what this whole system has brought us. But come on, dude.
Phil Rickaby: You know, chances are, you know, chances are after, you know, once he got once he got offended, that's all he heard. He didn't pay attention to anything else. He was just holding on to his offense, crossing his arms, being like, she hates men, men are to blame for everything that hurts. Yes. And he didn't hear anything else.
Marla Torgerson: Well, it was funny because he went to. So in the original version, my guitarist that I had on stage with me, I'm like, he has to look like a white Jesus because I have to be able to yell at him if things aren't going well. Like I have to be like, where the fuck were you? Anyway, and so the guy that my best friend hired. We fell in love and he's my person. We're we're we've it's locked down like we're he's my person. And it's funny because that guy that complained about it went to him during one of the showings. Like he saw me and was like, oh, my goodness. She is like so much. She is everything like my guy. And this guy went to him and said, like, she really is being hard on being hard on us. And my guy was like, well, you know, and it's so fascinating to see where men fall on this, because honestly, it's not for y'all. Like if you guys come, thank you for buying a ticket. We love. But it's for the she's the gays in the days. You know, it's not really for you. You know why? Because everything else is. So, you know, I'm going if you come and you hate it. Thanks for buying a ticket. Write a negative review and say that you were offended. You know, like. I just I don't know, I can't live like that anymore. And the problem is my body, my my factory setting still lives like that, my factory setting still makes room, still allows, still seeds the ground. So I have to in my conscious mind go, you know what? It's OK if you're offended. It's OK, like because. The system that you set up has, you know, disconnected you as well. And at some point, maybe you'll see that. And if you don't, that's OK, you know?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, it is amazing how that programming, especially for those of us who like grew up in in evangelical churches, um, how that programming just sort of even now will come up. It'll be like the programming just surfaces and you have to go, why am I thinking like that? Why am I reacting like that? Why is that thought there? And you have to like go through the thing again where you circle it and go, that's because of this and carry the one and move it over here. Then we can deal with that.
Marla Torgerson: Yeah, and I always feel so grateful, honestly, like I feel so grateful. I'm like, why is it that of all of my family? I'm the one that could see through the molecules. I'm the one who could see the water that we're swimming in and go like, wait a second, there's more to there's more than this, right? Like it doesn't seem fair because a part of me goes like, so universally speaking, I was given a lot more tools than some of these other people. And yeah, they were given opportunities to evolve. They were given opportunities to, you know, that they didn't take. But a lot of it is just like your, you have the kind of brain and the kind of whatever confidence like that you can be curious, you know, and you can, you want something else. And that is like, what a gift. We didn't cultivate that. That's just in us. And so that's why I can have a little bit more empathy, a little bit more because I'm like, you are, like I said to my nephew when he was younger, I'm like, some people only see primary colors and you see a rainbow and you're never going to explain to somebody who only sees primary colors what pink is. And so you need to just allow them to be limited and not from a place of like, I can see pink, but from a place of like, I understand that there is no point and that we are just from our experience or from a universal design. We're different.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Now, just in closing, in closing, I love that.
Marla Torgerson: It's very pastoral of you.
Phil Rickaby: I know.
Marla Torgerson: We know we're going to get to go for lunch.
Phil Rickaby: I should do a processional and we'll go out for our Sunday lunch after.
Marla Torgerson: Can you can you do an altar call? Because I need to be saved today.
Phil Rickaby: Oh, my God. I don't even know. See, I've I've been so far away from the evangelical church that I don't have an altar call in me. I would have to relearn how to do that.
Marla Torgerson: And that's not a place I'm going, you know, and now I'm going to go to hell and it's your fault.
Phil Rickaby: So thanks. So sorry, but I don't believe in hell. So but in closing, I was curious about, you know, this is you're you're doing this show essentially in its current form for the first time at the Toronto Fringe. Yeah. What are you most looking forward to in this in this at this fringe?
Marla Torgerson: I'm most looking forward to the joy of it. I'm most looking forward to the fringe audience that is there because they love theatre, they love musical theatre. And Basmaraj is such a good venue and people are just there to be tuned in and they want to laugh and they're on your side. You know, the joy of that, the joy of being with other creatives after the preparation, which is such a gauntlet. And you're like, now I'm poor enough to sell foot pictures. But like it's one of those things. It's one of those things where I'm looking forward to just performing it and feeling that resonance with people. And giving it like it's really come to this really lovely place, like the 90 minute version is so beautiful. And in Toronto, we get to where I'm using a full band and, you know, some of the guys from Forte Gay Men's Chorus are going to sing. And it's just like this beautiful thing that like we in Canada get to experience together. And it's like it just feels like fertile ground for the message. And like I'm meeting a moment and there's so much that will bloom from it that it just feels it just feels good. I just feel grateful, honestly, for the experience, for the the the availability of that experience.
Phil Rickaby: Awesome. Well, Marla, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Looking forward to Sinner at the Toronto Fringe. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Stageworthy. I will get to the episode. I will talk about next week's episode very shortly. But first, let me talk about my Patreon. I can't do this show without the people who've chosen to back me on Patreon. It costs money to do so many things with with a podcast, even though the podcast is available to you as the listener for free. And your support helps so much. And the people who have chosen to back this show, I'm so grateful to them because they're the reason that I get to keep making this show. If you want to help me to make this show, if you want to help me to grow the show, to keep making it, please consider becoming a patron. Go to Patreon.com/stageworthy and become a patron. Patrons get early access to episodes. We'll have conversations about things that are happening in the theatre world. And the more people who do join, the more I'll be able to offer to my patrons. So please consider joining, becoming a patron. Go to Patreon.com/stageworthy and become a patron. This past Monday, I hosted a livestream fringe preview with Janine from A View from the Box, Ryan from the Cup, Ryan from Plate to Playbills, and Alexandra from Being Dramatic. That's a conversation where we talked about the shows we're looking forward to addressing some important issues about the fringe this year, just generally talking about fringe because we all love it. So you'll be able to hear that and watch it on the YouTube channel on Tuesday as the episode next week. Stay tuned next week for that replay episode. And thank you so much for listening.