WEBVTT 00:02.000 --> 00:05.000 Hello and welcome to the HumanWare See Things Differently podcast. 00:05.000 --> 00:21.000 Each month, join your hosts Peter Tucic, Rachael Ramos and David Woodbridge as we bring you engaging interviews from guests, interaction from our one of a kind distribution partners, stories that will take you off the beaten path, current promos, shows where you can find us and so much more. 00:21.000 --> 00:24.000 So stick around. 00:24.000 --> 00:25.000 Welcome. 00:25.000 --> 00:27.000 Good morning, good evening. Afternoon. 00:27.000 --> 00:28.000 Good day. 00:28.000 --> 00:29.000 One of these days 00:29.000 --> 00:32.000 I'm going to get that intro actually down where it'll be something you will know. 00:32.000 --> 00:35.000 Peter does the same way every single month. 00:35.000 --> 00:38.000 But until then, you do know that now it is the third Thursday of March. 00:38.000 --> 00:43.000 Welcome to another episode of See Things Differently with HumanWare - the podcast. 00:43.000 --> 00:45.000 Hello, Rachel. 00:45.000 --> 00:47.000 Hello, Peter. 00:47.000 --> 00:48.000 How are you doing? 00:48.000 --> 00:50.000 What's going on in your March land? 00:50.000 --> 00:53.000 You know, March is looking like it's going to be a warm month. 00:53.000 --> 00:55.000 I cannot wait for spring. 00:55.000 --> 00:56.000 I'm going to furnish my patio. 00:56.000 --> 00:58.000 It's going to be amazing. I'm ready for it. 00:58.000 --> 01:01.000 We're going to have an episode on patio furnishing coming up. 01:01.000 --> 01:03.000 Actually, I think that could be a theme for April. 01:03.000 --> 01:07.000 May. David, how is your patio and how are you doing over there in Australia? 01:07.000 --> 01:12.000 I'm doing extremely well, and I'm loving the fact that it's now cooling down. 01:12.000 --> 01:14.000 So the humidity level is doing a lot better. 01:14.000 --> 01:17.000 So it's no longer sitting at 98% humidity. 01:18.000 --> 01:22.000 And I'm having cooler days because of course we're coming into, you know, proper 01:23.000 --> 01:24.000 Spring, not spring. 01:24.000 --> 01:26.000 You guys always confuse me. 01:26.000 --> 01:27.000 We're coming into autumn. 01:27.000 --> 01:29.000 Sorry, in this part of the hemisphere. 01:29.000 --> 01:30.000 And then it's winter. 01:30.000 --> 01:32.000 So this is my favorite time of the year. 01:32.000 --> 01:37.000 Now. Well, I will, because I know everyone is used to your podcasting prowess. 01:37.000 --> 01:40.000 And we will point out that you are actually on location. 01:40.000 --> 01:42.000 You are committed, you are working. You're on the road. 01:42.000 --> 01:47.000 So you're coming to us from a remote location, not your typical home studio set up. 01:47.000 --> 01:49.000 Right? Absolutely. 01:49.000 --> 01:54.000 So you're bearing with us, like, just just coming to us live, which is awesome. 01:54.000 --> 01:55.000 And that's the beauty of podcasting, right? 01:55.000 --> 01:57.000 We can always join for even some months. 01:57.000 --> 02:04.000 One of us, or multiples of us may not sound as good as at other points, depending on where we may be. 02:04.000 --> 02:09.000 But this month, in March, there are two things we're going to focus on. 02:09.000 --> 02:11.000 And the two pieces it is, 02:12.000 --> 02:14.000 International Women's Month, first of all. 02:14.000 --> 02:17.000 And secondly, we are going to be talking about orientation and mobility. 02:17.000 --> 02:22.000 And in doing both of those, we have a very neat set of segments here. 02:22.000 --> 02:30.000 Of course, we will have an interview and then we'll talk about some tips and tricks, and we'll have a bit of a hot take segment and look at a cringeworthy story. 02:31.000 --> 02:35.000 Joining us is somebody who I think we're all going to be very excited to hear from. 02:35.000 --> 02:38.000 Someone who is joining us from across the pond is actually in Glasgow, 02:38.000 --> 02:41.000 Scotland, Michelle Young, but we're very glad you could join us. 02:41.000 --> 02:45.000 And Michelle is a orientation and mobility instructor. 02:45.000 --> 02:55.000 She is visually impaired herself and has actually- I've read some pieces online that you've done for different cane travel and different experiences. 02:55.000 --> 02:58.000 And I know your story is awesome, but we'll get into some of that. 02:58.000 --> 03:02.000 But welcome to See Things Differently With HumanWare the podcast and thanks for coming up. 03:02.000 --> 03:05.000 Thank you very much for having me, Peter, David and Rachel. 03:05.000 --> 03:06.000 It's so nice to be here. 03:06.000 --> 03:24.000 We are fired up and I guess you know, in looking at orientation, mobility and kind of talking about our stories and all of us here are, I mean, myself and David and Rachel, we're all totally blind and certainly received training for a long time. 03:24.000 --> 03:34.000 But I know you are not necessarily new to vision loss, but cane travel and sort of the orientation mobility side of things wasn't something you necessarily grew up with from a very early age. 03:35.000 --> 03:37.000 You came into this a bit later, right? 03:37.000 --> 03:40.000 I mean, you came in not as a young child, correct? 03:40.000 --> 03:42.000 That's right. 03:42.000 --> 03:50.000 I was born with a congenital eye condition, but it was fairly non-aggressive, as it were. 03:50.000 --> 03:56.000 And then I developed a secondary one which, is quite degenerative and quite so. 03:56.000 --> 03:58.000 I have glaucoma and that's degenerative. 03:58.000 --> 04:04.000 So it's becoming more and more it's taking more of my vision as I get older. 04:04.000 --> 04:08.000 So for the first kind of 15 years of my life, I never used a cane. 04:08.000 --> 04:12.000 And then I was very reluctantly introduced to cane travel. 04:12.000 --> 04:16.000 And like any teenager, when handed a cane or handed anything that stands out, 04:16.000 --> 04:27.000 I was not particularly keen to adopt the cane, and was very restricted by my own mentality, I suppose. 04:27.000 --> 04:33.000 But my real sort of come to Jesus universe moment was when I was in my late 20s. 04:33.000 --> 04:48.000 I worked with Daniel Kesh, who's an echolocation and flash sonar specialist, and he introduced me to a completely different methods of orientation or mobility structured discovery and, and, you know, change the length of your cane, do structured discovery, use echolocation. 04:48.000 --> 04:55.000 These are all completely foreign concepts, but they totally revolutionized how I traveled and how I went through life. 04:56.000 --> 04:58.000 Can we unpack that a second? I am totally blind. 04:58.000 --> 05:08.000 And I'll tell you the first 15 years of my life as someone who absolutely should have been using a cane and did use a cane at school, don't get me wrong, but never, ever wanted to take the cane outside. 05:09.000 --> 05:15.000 And I'm sure I don't know, you know, when Rachel and David, if you had this sort of experience as well. 05:15.000 --> 05:17.000 But I was embarrassed and I was totally blind. 05:17.000 --> 05:25.000 I mean, I would, I would rather and I think it's because, you know, it was easier just to hold my mom's wrist and then and then eventually her elbow. 05:25.000 --> 05:26.000 Right. 05:26.000 --> 05:34.000 As opposed to or just have friends, you know, I would just be bumping into things or I was too embarrassed even going out with friends at times because I didn't want to use the cane. 05:34.000 --> 05:38.000 And you, you talk about in the article 05:38.000 --> 05:48.000 I read about realizing that you could be far more confident, and just that kind of dawned on you at some point that walking through, you know, life with a cane was empowering. 05:48.000 --> 05:50.000 And I- it sounds cliche. 05:50.000 --> 06:00.000 I absolutely had the same experience, and eventually realized like, well, if I want to go do things, if I want to be as independent as I can be, and independence will look different for every one of us. 06:01.000 --> 06:02.000 But the cane was going to be how 06:02.000 --> 06:05.000 I was going to get there, and I had to get over that. 06:06.000 --> 06:13.000 I don't know that- not embarrassment, but just that kind of shame factor that, yeah, you're probably the only one unless you're at some sort of convention. 06:13.000 --> 06:22.000 You know, the only one with a white cane in the room or in the space you're in, but that it is going to be something that gives you lots and lots of of empowerment and confidence. 06:23.000 --> 06:24.000 I had that exact same piece. 06:24.000 --> 06:32.000 Did that happen because you saw somebody, you know, you were with somebody else using a cane because that's how it happened for me. Or did it just was it just something you're naturally like, well, I got to get out. 06:32.000 --> 06:35.000 I got I've got to start doing these things that I want to do. 06:35.000 --> 06:37.000 I was 16 years old. 06:37.000 --> 06:42.000 I was at high school and I had a crush, and my crush used to walk home for lunch. 06:42.000 --> 06:48.000 And one day I was going to the hospital and he said to me, oh, do you want me to walk you? 06:48.000 --> 06:50.000 I'll walk with you to the bus stop. 06:50.000 --> 06:55.000 And of course, 16 year old me was just dying at this point and I thought, I've got to walk. 06:55.000 --> 06:58.000 But it was- the sun was really, really bright. 06:58.000 --> 07:01.000 And at that point I'd been learning cane skills around the school. 07:01.000 --> 07:04.000 So people had seen me learning cane, but I wouldn't. 07:04.000 --> 07:11.000 I didn't use it at school because I had enough vision where I could manage and say, but outside, darkness and such were becoming very problematic. 07:12.000 --> 07:23.000 And we were crossing a road and we got to the little island and I tripped over the curb and fell right on my knees in front of the object of my affections. 07:23.000 --> 07:33.000 And he just turned to me, deadpan, and said, you know, if you were using that stick thing they're teaching you to use, that wouldn't have happened, would it not just be more sensible to use it? 07:33.000 --> 07:37.000 Perfect! I love it! And I was kind of like, yeah, probably would. 07:37.000 --> 07:41.000 So I sat on the bus on the way to the hospital and it was in my bag. 07:41.000 --> 07:43.000 This is what makes it funnier. It was in my bag. 07:43.000 --> 07:46.000 You had it with me and I got to the hospital and I unfolded the cane. 07:46.000 --> 07:48.000 When I got off the bus and I used. 07:48.000 --> 07:54.000 And that was my, you know, eureka moment of I'm going to use my cane. 07:54.000 --> 08:19.000 Because in actual fact, you do look much more silly when you're banging into things and tripping over things than when you're moving through the world with a bit of grace and a bit of confidence, using your cane and when I work with young people, look, as an organization, I work with Luke Cukier and they work with young people, and I tell that story and I get a lot of laughs from the teenagers because it's quite real, even though I'm much older than they are in their eyes. 08:19.000 --> 08:21.000 It's really relatable for them. 08:21.000 --> 08:26.000 And I think you've got to find it has to be something that's relatable to someone else to make you use the cane. 08:27.000 --> 08:39.000 Whether it's, as you say, seeing someone traveling through the world independently and, you know, people that wheelchair users talk about, you know, they're not bound to their wheelchairs, their wheelchairs give them independence. 08:39.000 --> 08:41.000 They enable them to get out and live life. 08:41.000 --> 08:43.000 That's what cane or I taught a dog. 08:43.000 --> 08:46.000 For some people, a cane or a dog enables you to do it. 08:47.000 --> 08:48.000 It's not something to be embarrassed about. 08:48.000 --> 08:51.000 It's just how we interact with the world. 08:51.000 --> 08:58.000 Did your family also, in a sense, enable you not to need to use a cane because they were able to help you, right. 08:58.000 --> 09:04.000 You would take someone's elbow or someone was always going to tell you if maybe there were some stops, or because a lot of times, especially for me, 09:04.000 --> 09:13.000 I would just rely on my family who knew my needs and who didn't push me to use the cane because it wasn't something that, you know, 09:13.000 --> 09:16.000 I didn't need to do it around them because I could rely on their help. 09:16.000 --> 09:20.000 And it got to the point where, my mom, I'll never forget this. 09:20.000 --> 09:24.000 Once somebody got ahold of her and told her, like, listen, you are not helping the cause here, right? 09:24.000 --> 09:28.000 And we got to a store once, and she said, where's your cane? 09:28.000 --> 09:29.000 And I said, what do you mean I'm not using the cane? 09:29.000 --> 09:33.000 I was probably in about eighth grade, so maybe 13 ish here in the States. 09:34.000 --> 09:36.000 And she goes, well, if you don't have it with you, you're not coming in the store. 09:36.000 --> 09:39.000 And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the car. 09:39.000 --> 09:41.000 Like, wait a minute. That's not how this works. 09:41.000 --> 09:43.000 And she said, yes, it does. 09:43.000 --> 09:46.000 And she went into the store and just left me outside. 09:46.000 --> 09:47.000 And I told the story. 09:47.000 --> 09:48.000 I bring her on the road. 09:48.000 --> 09:54.000 And we told this story a couple of years ago at an event for parents called We Have Been in Your Shoes or something like that. 09:54.000 --> 09:57.000 I forced her to come on the road and present with me, and she's like, I didn't do that. 09:57.000 --> 09:59.000 And it's like, oh, yes, you did. 09:59.000 --> 10:06.000 But I'm curious, you know, did your family also, you know, even if, like you said, school was trying to teach you, but maybe there wasn't a carryover. 10:07.000 --> 10:14.000 Well, it's interesting because I did a lot of masking as a younger child pretending to see it like, a lot more than I could. 10:15.000 --> 10:22.000 So when the cane arrived, my family were generally and my friends were like, you don't need that. Why? 10:22.000 --> 10:23.000 Why have they given you a cane? 10:23.000 --> 10:25.000 You don't need this cane. Why are you using your cane? 10:25.000 --> 10:32.000 And there was a lot of pushback initially from my family, and I had a friend who was a cane user. 10:32.000 --> 10:39.000 So he and I would spend time together, and I liked spending time with him because he used his cane and I use my cane, and it felt quite normal. 10:40.000 --> 10:43.000 And his parents were like, you see, they were like, well, you don't work without your cane. 10:43.000 --> 10:44.000 You have to use your cane. 10:44.000 --> 10:49.000 And if they were driving to somewhere in the car, they'd be like, do you both have your canes before we drop you off? 10:49.000 --> 10:55.000 My family growing up, you know, I had cousins and friends and everything, and we don't just run around together. 10:55.000 --> 10:59.000 And it was very much I just did everything all the other kids did. 10:59.000 --> 11:07.000 You know, I roller skated, I baked, I had so many accidents and injuries because I'd like, crash into things that fly off curbs and nobody made the connect. 11:07.000 --> 11:13.000 It was just I, my mom was a young mom, and so I think she didn't have any experience of blindness. 11:13.000 --> 11:14.000 She didn't have it. 11:14.000 --> 11:16.000 And so she just kind of was like, okay, well, 11:16.000 --> 11:19.000 I know she's got this eye condition, but I don't really know what it means for her. 11:19.000 --> 11:25.000 So I just want her to do everything that everyone else does, and I'm sure she'll figure out. That's awesome. 11:25.000 --> 11:28.000 Doesn't sound like responsible parenting what I say when I say it out loud. 11:28.000 --> 11:30.000 No, it's just like. 11:30.000 --> 11:39.000 But it's it just I think it it did me good, though, because I do feel know that there are situations where I know a lot of people who are in my situation or I don't have the confidence. 11:39.000 --> 11:40.000 I couldn't do that. 11:40.000 --> 11:42.000 And I'm very much just, well, I'm just going to try it. 11:42.000 --> 11:43.000 I'm just going to suck it and see. 11:43.000 --> 11:46.000 I'm going to see how it goes, you know? We'll figure it out on the fly. 11:46.000 --> 11:54.000 There's a flip side to it because I grew up very fortunately, you know, I had access to riding a bike or shooting baskets and out in front of the house. 11:54.000 --> 11:59.000 I grew up in a suburban cul de sac, so it wasn't like some crazy urban environment, but it was- 11:59.000 --> 12:13.000 I was out there with sighted kids doing what kids do right, playing tag and playing football and playing, just running over and absolutely taking out mailboxes in the process and falling down all sorts of stairs and things. 12:13.000 --> 12:26.000 But I think, yeah, it as much as it that is the, the counter is, well you did do all these things and you know, you were exposed to them just with all the kids around you and you weren't using a cane when you did that. 12:26.000 --> 12:29.000 So it was kind of like, well, your muscle memory was developed. 12:29.000 --> 12:32.000 You're kind of problem solving skills were developed in a sense. 12:32.000 --> 12:39.000 But then definitely when it came time to get out in public and actually be self-sufficient, you started to see all these sort of cracks emerging, right? 12:39.000 --> 12:45.000 You go from kind of not being, you know, this, this cane user. 12:45.000 --> 12:51.000 But not only do you then thanks to love discover, you know that you want that, you want it. 12:51.000 --> 12:56.000 You want to use the cane and you get into clearly developing kind of this understanding. 12:56.000 --> 13:00.000 But then then you meet Daniel or you, you kind of encounter 13:00.000 --> 13:03.000 Daniel and you learn not only about other kind of the own. 13:03.000 --> 13:06.000 I'm sorry, but you become an instructor and you really lean into it. 13:06.000 --> 13:07.000 Right. 13:07.000 --> 13:09.000 And can you talk a bit about that? 13:09.000 --> 13:15.000 Like, because that is the best I love that yeah, I did, I kind of had a bit of it was I'm a bit of an evangelist. No, 13:15.000 --> 13:21.000 I definitely I'm very much I like working with children and young people. 13:21.000 --> 13:24.000 I work with adults too, but I enjoy working with them because 13:25.000 --> 13:32.000 I feel like a lot of the work that I do is with the the whole unit, the families, the friends. 13:32.000 --> 13:44.000 And it's really important to talk to kids about situations like you talked about with your mom, seeing you know you because they want you have to be, you know, the cane shouldn't be in mom's hand bag. The cane should be in your hand. 13:44.000 --> 13:47.000 And being visible and you being comfortable with it. 13:47.000 --> 14:03.000 And when we- I work for an organization in Scotland called Visibility, and they are one of the local kind of blindness organization, and they brought Daniel Kesh to the UK to teach, to work with young people, but also to teach some of us to instruct in echolocation. 14:04.000 --> 14:13.000 So there were four of us, all visually impaired, who spent 2 or 3 weeks with Daniel, sort of learning and walking around the streets of Glasgow. 14:14.000 --> 14:24.000 When you do lean into it, it's very doable, and if you're out there doing it, it becomes easier the more you encounter and the more you allow yourself to do it, the more you can do. 14:25.000 --> 14:30.000 And then becoming and realizing that not everyone who is blind will make a good O&M instructor. 14:30.000 --> 14:42.000 Because blindness doesn't necessarily equate to good skills, but because I had teaching experience, and it's something that teaching and coaching is something that I have other skills. 14:42.000 --> 14:45.000 And I found that I really enjoyed it and could relate to it really well. 14:45.000 --> 14:49.000 So Daniel said, you know, would you like to, you know, become an instructor, would you like to work with me? 14:49.000 --> 14:51.000 And I said, yes. 14:51.000 --> 15:03.000 And so I was able to travel and instruct for him in various places at West Ham and with other instructors around the world teaching, you know, the echolocation piece. 15:03.000 --> 15:12.000 And also in the States you do way more structured discovery type teaching than we do here in the UK. 15:12.000 --> 15:17.000 Structured discovery is a very- we do it to be route based mobility. 15:17.000 --> 15:33.000 And when you know doing qualifications here in the UK, it's very difficult as someone who for, you know, 15 or so years has been a real proponent and advocate of structured discovery to then go back to, you must hold your cane in this position and you must hold your cane in that position. And why did you cane- 15:33.000 --> 15:39.000 And I'm like, and I think my cohort found it incredibly useful to have me. 15:39.000 --> 15:45.000 I was the only visually impaired person on the class, and they were like, why is your cane like a foot longer than it should be? 15:45.000 --> 15:47.000 And I would, I would teach them. 15:47.000 --> 15:49.000 And so we'd spend all day learning. 15:49.000 --> 15:54.000 But at lunchtime and then at the end of the day, they would say, can you teach us about this and can you teach us about that? 15:54.000 --> 15:58.000 So they got the standard teaching, but they also got the alternative teaching. 15:58.000 --> 16:12.000 And I feel like there are now 21 O&Ms who have gone out into Scotland who are really more they're far more broadly qualified and far more broad than their sort of peers are. 16:12.000 --> 16:33.000 And I think what the takeaway from me for that was, they said, what you talk about just makes a lot of sense because you're- if you're a blind person talking to us about why this, why this is good and why this makes sense, and the lecturers are two sighted people telling us, well, this, this and this, but actually you as a blind person, you're out there loving it and doing it every day. 16:33.000 --> 16:35.000 And what you say makes sense. 16:35.000 --> 16:48.000 And this leads me back to the echolocation piece when I first encountered Daniel and I've met Daniel, and certainly a lot of people have seen Daniel because he's been on, you know, different shows and things over the years. 16:48.000 --> 16:52.000 People would ask me and I think for, for Rachel and David, 16:53.000 --> 16:56.000 I'm sure people are like, well, you know, do you, do you do this echo stuff? 16:56.000 --> 17:02.000 And what they imagine is that we walk around kind of doing a clicker sort of approach and, and I would say, no, 17:02.000 --> 17:05.000 I mean, we naturally use echolocation all the time. 17:05.000 --> 17:14.000 I tell people, you can hear buildings and I'm sure I get some funny looks, but when you walk by a very tall building, you can tell there is something way above you. 17:14.000 --> 17:18.000 Or if you walk through a carport, right? 17:18.000 --> 17:24.000 You can tell all the echoes are different and you don't have to click, but you can if that's helpful. 17:24.000 --> 17:29.000 Or even if you walk by a fence, you can tell if it's wood versus chain-link. 17:29.000 --> 17:34.000 And those are all environmental clues that can kind of help you realize where you are. 17:34.000 --> 17:55.000 I've just learned how to get to Sydney Airport, and one of the things that I do is I see when I get from the baggage claim area back to the train system, there's a very high ceiling, and then it slowly goes down to almost like a tunnel, because I've walked down to the station, and it's right at that point where the assistant remains, you know, to take you up to the loo and so on. 17:55.000 --> 18:06.000 And it actually works really well because I can actually feel and the sound changes as you go from a very tall space and very open to a very closed in, lowered roof type stuff. 18:06.000 --> 18:10.000 And it's just so automatic that, you know, I just don't even think about it. 18:10.000 --> 18:11.000 It's absolutely amazing. 18:11.000 --> 18:16.000 It's when I when that type of stuff is taken away from me, it's like, where's my sixth sense gone? I want it back. 18:16.000 --> 18:19.000 So yeah, it does work really nicely. Definitely. 18:19.000 --> 18:30.000 I was just going to say one of the things that Daniel will say, he's- he and I are good friends, and I'm, I'm really pleased that we've been able to sort of remain friends and colleagues that he says, I didn't invent echolocation. 18:30.000 --> 18:33.000 Blind people have been doing it since there were blind people. 18:33.000 --> 18:44.000 But one of the things that I also find is a lot of people who I teach, they explain, but they don't have the vocabulary to to describe what they're hearing. They don't have the words. 18:44.000 --> 18:53.000 So it's almost like enabling them to describe what they're doing and to be able to use it. Because, again, exactly what Rachel said. 18:53.000 --> 19:00.000 It's you can tell the difference between a wooden fence or a chain link fence or a glass, a glass window wall and a brick wall. 19:00.000 --> 19:03.000 But what does that actually mean? 19:03.000 --> 19:08.000 And a lot of the work that I do, I'm not teaching people that sound means that because they know that. 19:08.000 --> 19:17.000 But what I'm then teaching them is especially here in the UK, we're taught we're not taught to think for ourselves, and we're not taught to use common sense and logic and problem solving. 19:17.000 --> 19:20.000 We're taught about look for this landmark, look for that landmark. 19:20.000 --> 19:31.000 So I'm saying, okay, if you're in Glasgow City Center, for example, and you're hearing the building, which is brick, but then you start to hear glass, that could that's probably a door. 19:31.000 --> 19:34.000 So then you can start swinging your cane, looking for a door panel. 19:34.000 --> 19:43.000 And so a lot of what I do is, you know, just bridging that gap between what seems like almost supernatural, 19:43.000 --> 19:47.000 Daredevil type stuff to actually bringing it back to day to day stuff. 19:48.000 --> 19:48.000 I love it. 19:48.000 --> 20:02.000 And the other piece and you talk about this and I think for anyone who, whether you're a seasoned cane user or someone who's newer to using a cane, is the type of can you use and how do you even know the length of that cane? 20:02.000 --> 20:06.000 You know, and everyone will have a different preference, as to what? 20:07.000 --> 20:08.000 As to what cane they like. 20:08.000 --> 20:10.000 I'm personally, I'm an Ambutek user. 20:10.000 --> 20:11.000 I like a heavier cane. 20:11.000 --> 20:13.000 I like just that weight. 20:13.000 --> 20:16.000 You know, and I like a rolling cane tip. 20:16.000 --> 20:22.000 But I was working with a friend of mine who is a distributor of ours who's newer- 20:22.000 --> 20:26.000 You know, they were losing a lot more vision, and it's just started using a cane a bit more. 20:26.000 --> 20:33.000 It's a very tall guy, probably six foot eight ish. 6'10'' ish. 20:33.000 --> 20:35.000 And his cane was like, up to his, like. 20:35.000 --> 20:37.000 I mean, your toes rib cage. And I'm like, what are you doing? 20:37.000 --> 20:40.000 And my thought was, oh, I think he has an identity cane, right. 20:40.000 --> 20:41.000 Which is what I refer. 20:41.000 --> 20:44.000 We refer to it here, meaning, you know, more. 20:44.000 --> 20:44.000 So I'm low vision. 20:44.000 --> 20:46.000 I have some, I have some vision. 20:46.000 --> 20:49.000 But, you know, you'll know this and I and I was telling him, you've got to find- 20:49.000 --> 20:52.000 You're going to be so slouched down and you're not going to have any time to react to anything. 20:52.000 --> 20:54.000 If you do find some obstacles with a cane that short. 20:54.000 --> 20:57.000 So can you talk a bit about, 20:58.000 --> 21:06.000 I guess, I guess just in that for those who are out there, because we will have lots of listeners who maybe are newer, you know, to vision loss or who are just kind of like, well, I should be using a cane a bit more. 21:07.000 --> 21:11.000 Not that everyone will want to choose the right cane, but you talk about three different types of canes. 21:11.000 --> 21:17.000 Can you can you summarize that into what you kind of talked about in your your three types of cane piece that I, that I was reading about? 21:17.000 --> 21:18.000 Sure. 21:18.000 --> 21:25.000 So we so here in the UK we call them we call them simple cane, a guide cane and then a long cane. 21:25.000 --> 21:28.000 And I think a simple cane is what you guys would call an identity cane. 21:29.000 --> 21:36.000 Which essentially that's kind of wrong until it does exactly what it says on the tin and lets people know that you have a vision impairment. 21:36.000 --> 21:40.000 It's not intended to find obstacles or detect anything. 21:40.000 --> 21:42.000 It's literally just there as a baton to show. 21:42.000 --> 21:45.000 It's like a badge to say I am visually impaired. 21:45.000 --> 21:48.000 A guide cane is the next step up. 21:48.000 --> 21:49.000 From that. 21:49.000 --> 21:58.000 A guide cane again, not really supposed to be used the way a long cane is, but you can use it perhaps to check the height of a stair or to tap to see how far away a barrier is. 21:59.000 --> 22:01.000 Again, they're very light. They're not very robust. 22:01.000 --> 22:04.000 The and they're not supposed to and they're short. 22:04.000 --> 22:11.000 They're not supposed to be, used on the ground, but they are a great sort of bridge for people who are maybe losing their sight. 22:11.000 --> 22:12.000 They're losing their sight later in life. 22:12.000 --> 22:23.000 They're uncomfortable with the idea of going straight to a long cane, and then you have to have the long cane, which is the one that most people who are blind are using all the time. 22:23.000 --> 22:25.000 It's the one that you can swing back and forward. 22:25.000 --> 22:28.000 They come in all different shapes, sizes, materials. 22:28.000 --> 22:31.000 There are a dozen or more different tips you can put on the end. 22:31.000 --> 22:35.000 You know of your cane, depending on the terrain and what you're doing. 22:36.000 --> 22:49.000 And those are the canes that really facilitate, you know, commuting and traveling and independence and enable you to detect obstacles and, you know, curbs and steps and do all that. 22:49.000 --> 22:55.000 But, you know, get a long cane when when kids are young, get a long cane in their hand, get, you know, be comfortable with your cane and be proud of your cane. 22:55.000 --> 22:57.000 You know, the 22:57.000 --> 23:01.000 I think also people don't understand and structured discoveries is extremely important to learn about the surroundings. 23:01.000 --> 23:06.000 And we do so much of that here in the National Federation of the Blind and many places support and promote that. 23:07.000 --> 23:38.000 But there is a lot of technique to using a cane properly for you to be able to use this cane most effectively and most efficiently, and to benefit you the most, you need to learn how to use it properly from somebody who can teach you how to use it properly, and why two point touch is better than sweeping or constant contact, and why this technique or that technique, and even learning things like pre-cane skills, using some pre-cane skills in combination with cane skills. 23:38.000 --> 23:44.000 Yeah, well, I know this time went by very fast and just really appreciate your time, Michelle. 23:44.000 --> 23:47.000 And I believe you're going to stick around with us for the next segment here. 23:47.000 --> 23:51.000 But thank you so much for coming on, talking a little bit about your experience yourself. 23:51.000 --> 23:55.000 It's just great to have and even to have another an international flavor to See Things 23:55.000 --> 23:58.000 Differently with HumanWare podcast, it's tremendously appreciated. 23:58.000 --> 24:01.000 So thank you for being here. 24:01.000 --> 24:02.000 It's absolutely my pleasure. 24:02.000 --> 24:08.000 I'm not sure how often Glaswegians get caused to be called international flavor, but I will take it. 24:08.000 --> 24:09.000 Thank you. 24:09.000 --> 24:11.000 We're going worldwide, so we're starting with Scotland. 24:11.000 --> 24:13.000 We're going out from there. So thank you. 24:15.000 --> 24:19.000 Welcome back to See Things Differently the podcast. 24:19.000 --> 24:22.000 And this is going to be our hot take piece Michelle is still with us. 24:22.000 --> 24:37.000 And why not if you're talking O&M and you want to have an issue that can be debated by blind people here and far everywhere, there's going to be the classic cane versus guide dog. 24:37.000 --> 24:45.000 Not necessarily debate, but really we're always asked and I, I personally, have not ever had a guide dog and we can get into that in a moment. 24:46.000 --> 24:50.000 But you know, we all have different thoughts here. 24:50.000 --> 24:53.000 And, David, I know you're a guide dog user. 24:53.000 --> 24:55.000 And, Rachel, I think you were a guide dog user. 24:55.000 --> 24:58.000 Although as long as I've known you, you you haven't had a dog. 24:58.000 --> 25:00.000 But before we get into whether user or not. 25:00.000 --> 25:01.000 Michelle, are you a guide dog? Yes. 25:01.000 --> 25:03.000 Are you a primary cane user? 25:03.000 --> 25:06.000 I am a guide dog user, yes I am. Oh nice. 25:06.000 --> 25:09.000 I know it's scandalous. 25:09.000 --> 25:11.000 I love it personally. 25:11.000 --> 25:13.000 I have never gotten a guide dog for two reasons. 25:13.000 --> 25:19.000 Number one, I never went and took the time to go get my first guide dog. 25:19.000 --> 25:22.000 And I think this is really what got me because I went from high school to college. 25:22.000 --> 25:30.000 I did not take the time, I didn't I didn't want to go and get and kind of spend the time to get a dog for the amount of time it would take. 25:31.000 --> 25:46.000 And then secondly, being, you know, now I'm a father, so I've become a lot more responsible with age, but I certainly was not, you know, really feeling the whole taking care of the dog aspect of owning the dog, feeding the dog, taking the dog out. 25:46.000 --> 25:47.000 It's very, very important. 25:47.000 --> 25:51.000 And I certainly now would probably commit to it a lot, and I would certainly do it. 25:51.000 --> 25:53.000 And I've seen the empowerment that a dog can bring. 25:53.000 --> 25:56.000 But I personally have always been a cane user. 25:56.000 --> 25:57.000 Floor is open. 25:57.000 --> 25:59.000 Michelle, I guess I'll start with you. 25:59.000 --> 26:00.000 And why? 26:00.000 --> 26:02.000 Why the dog? And certainly. 26:02.000 --> 26:04.000 When do you say no dog today or no dog? 26:04.000 --> 26:08.000 In this scenario, we're going to go back to the back to the back to the white cane. 26:08.000 --> 26:09.000 So very quickly. 26:09.000 --> 26:12.000 I was 17 when I trained with my first dog. 26:12.000 --> 26:14.000 He had some problems. 26:14.000 --> 26:16.000 And then I very quickly got matched with the second one. 26:16.000 --> 26:20.000 So I spent about four years, when I was much younger with dogs, 26:20.000 --> 26:25.000 I had two very unfortunate dogs, and I said, no, no more lucky white heather. 26:25.000 --> 26:26.000 Clearly I'm not meant to use dogs. 26:26.000 --> 26:28.000 And there was a massive gap I moved. 26:28.000 --> 26:29.000 I lived in Vancouver, 26:29.000 --> 26:32.000 I traveled all over the world using my cane, and I was perfectly happy. 26:33.000 --> 26:36.000 Came back to Glasgow and thought, I'm going to go on the guide dog waiting list. 26:36.000 --> 26:44.000 I went back and forward joining up because I just wasn't sure, because one of the key things that you've just said is looking after a dog is a lot of responsibility. 26:44.000 --> 26:47.000 You can't just fold it up and throw it in the cupboard at the end of the day. 26:48.000 --> 26:51.000 And there are all sorts of things to consider when you have a dog. 26:52.000 --> 27:02.000 So for me, the big things to consider where I do a lot of traveling, how will the dog cope with the amount of international traveling and the varied environments that I encounter? 27:02.000 --> 27:10.000 And also, we have a lot of access refusals with dogs here, particularly in the taxi and Uber environment. 27:10.000 --> 27:17.000 That was my number one, reservation for getting a dog because I thought, I do I want to deal with that. 27:17.000 --> 27:20.000 Can I deal with this arrival anxiety all the time? 27:20.000 --> 27:31.000 But for me, you know, I am confident and a confident and competent cane user guide dog mobility enables me to be faster. 27:31.000 --> 27:34.000 Then I walk pretty quickly with my cane. 27:35.000 --> 27:39.000 But I also have arthritis, in my wrist and in various parts. 27:39.000 --> 27:47.000 So sometimes using a cane for, you know, long distances and, you know, a full day out, it can get quite tiring. 27:47.000 --> 28:05.000 And I just feel like because I'm doing the navigating the dog takes all the stress of finding the obstacles away and dog use combines very well with echolocation, because you can still use all those echolocation techniques, but you can still listen for canopies and, for ceilings, flooring, and buildings. 28:05.000 --> 28:10.000 And you know, you can use cues like when you hear a building and you can use that effectively. 28:11.000 --> 28:16.000 And I think it's very important, however, that you should never just go straight to a dog. 28:16.000 --> 28:21.000 I think it's really important that the fundament and I will, you know, I will die on this hill. 28:21.000 --> 28:39.000 People should know how to use a cane and people should keep up their cane skills when they have a dog, because too often here in the UK, especially our wait in Leicester can be 3 or 4 years right now for dogs and people are just becoming isolated and trapped because they do not have the cane skills and so many places here. 28:39.000 --> 28:41.000 It is absolutely a prerequisite to even get a dog. 28:41.000 --> 28:46.000 You have to have some very solid foundational, not just cane skills, but orientation and mobility skills in general. 28:46.000 --> 28:48.000 So it's huge. 28:48.000 --> 28:51.000 David, what about you as a dog user? 28:51.000 --> 28:53.000 How long have you been a dog user? What are your thoughts? 28:53.000 --> 28:56.000 Yeah, why why the dog? Do I have to admit to how long I've had guide dogs? 28:57.000 --> 28:59.000 You could tell us how many you have had. 28:59.000 --> 29:00.000 That's much nicer. 29:00.000 --> 29:02.000 I've had. I'm up to my fifth guide dog now. 29:02.000 --> 29:13.000 I actually quite like the fact Michelle that you said keep up cane in schools, because that's always say to people, okay, you've got a guide dog, it's taking you places, it's obstacle avoidance, it's doing this, it's doing that. 29:13.000 --> 29:22.000 But if your guide dog gets sick or it's a noisy environment or anything else might happen, you must be able to still use your cane. 29:23.000 --> 29:28.000 I use my cane all the time because sometimes I just think, you know what? 29:28.000 --> 29:30.000 I don't want to walk my dog today. 29:30.000 --> 29:39.000 I just want to go for a stroll around the bike park and have a bit of a relax, or I'm going to go to a place where I know it's going to be a rock concert and it's going to be 96dB. 29:39.000 --> 29:42.000 I'm not going to expose my dog to that level of noise. 29:42.000 --> 29:43.000 I was getting a 29:44.000 --> 29:48.000 Uber from the airport, to where I'm staying, you know, in Adelaide. 29:48.000 --> 29:51.000 And for some odd reason, 29:51.000 --> 29:54.000 Louise and my guide dog kept wanting to go off the footpath. 29:54.000 --> 29:55.000 And for a minute. 29:55.000 --> 29:57.000 This is a really busy part of the airport. 29:57.000 --> 30:01.000 I do not want to be stepping off a path unless I have to. 30:01.000 --> 30:04.000 So I got my cane out and I thought, I'll just walk out. 30:04.000 --> 30:10.000 And it was literally about five inches of space between a bunch of trolleys and the curb. 30:11.000 --> 30:11.000 I thought- 30:11.000 --> 30:14.000 Oh, that's what she was trying to tell me, because half the time 30:14.000 --> 30:17.000 I go, what are you doing, you silly animal? 30:17.000 --> 30:21.000 And it's like, oh, actually, she's being a really good guide dog at the moment. 30:21.000 --> 30:31.000 So having my cane also takes that stress out of me thinking what's the dog doing is the dog being distracted versus, no, your dog is actually doing a really, really good job. 30:31.000 --> 30:35.000 So yeah, I always use my it's always in my bag as a standby. 30:35.000 --> 30:37.000 And I find it really good. 30:37.000 --> 30:42.000 So people that sort of say kind versus guard dog, it's like, well, actually no, it's both together. 30:42.000 --> 30:43.000 Rachel, what about you as someone- 30:43.000 --> 30:45.000 So I mean, you you used to dog for a while. 30:45.000 --> 30:52.000 I know you've been on my team since 2018 and you haven't had a dog since then, but when? When did you have a dog? And what are you? 30:52.000 --> 30:53.000 What are your thoughts? 30:53.000 --> 30:59.000 I guess as someone who's been a in the adult kind of space with both, both setups. 30:59.000 --> 31:01.000 So I used to guide dog way back in college. 31:01.000 --> 31:07.000 So it was a while ago now, and she was great for that time because obviously there's lots of crowds. 31:08.000 --> 31:13.000 You know, talk about lunchtime in the dining hall, tons of crowds, or you go in from class to class. 31:13.000 --> 31:17.000 And the dog just did wonderfully at guiding me, through the crowds. 31:17.000 --> 31:20.000 And they are obstacle avoiders. 31:20.000 --> 31:23.000 As we've all said, your cane is an obstacle finder. 31:24.000 --> 31:33.000 When she kind of just developed some stress and couldn't handle 0 634 00:31:27,318 --> 00:31:30,555 the responsibilities of the job anymore, and we found that out when, she just kind of stopped in the middle of the street one day. 31:33.000 --> 31:34.000 It was just like, no, I'm not going. 31:34.000 --> 31:37.000 And I said, well, we need to go because there's a car coming right at me. 31:37.000 --> 31:40.000 So it was, became an unsafe situation. 31:41.000 --> 31:45.000 So it was a very sad time because I had to end her- our working career early. 31:46.000 --> 31:49.000 And the school came in and dealt with all of that. 31:49.000 --> 32:00.000 But I noticed after, you know, having used a guide dog for two and a half years and you find so much more with your feet and with the cane, than you do with a guide dog. 32:00.000 --> 32:05.000 So I do miss the speed and agility that a guide dog brings. 32:06.000 --> 32:10.000 But also, there is a lot to be said for, walking with my cane. 32:10.000 --> 32:12.000 I also walk pretty fast. 32:12.000 --> 32:14.000 I'm, usually on a mission when I'm out on a walk. 32:14.000 --> 32:21.000 And so, just using your cane in a way that is safe and that works. 32:21.000 --> 32:30.000 It is different than a guide dog, but I'm glad that I've had the experience of using both, mobility aids, if you will. 32:30.000 --> 32:38.000 And those who travel with their guide dogs, I, I love it because, sure, like Michelle mentioned, there could be a little bit of arrival anxiety. 32:38.000 --> 32:39.000 Will I get a ride? 32:39.000 --> 32:46.000 Will the driver just drive away and leave me, or will I have a great interaction doing all of the travel I do for work 32:46.000 --> 32:47.000 A cane works for me. 32:47.000 --> 32:54.000 It's so much easier to kind of fold up and put in the seat pocket and put my carry ons where they need to go, and and I'm off and on my way. 32:54.000 --> 33:00.000 But I do love watching great guide dog teams, and I know the the advantages that they can bring. 33:00.000 --> 33:07.000 And certainly you learn lots and lots of techniques for correcting and, you know, getting the dog to be the dog you expect. 33:07.000 --> 33:10.000 I mean, it's there is so much there. 33:10.000 --> 33:12.000 You build a very, very, very special relationship. 33:12.000 --> 33:21.000 I mean, people and dogs have had very special relationship, but this is a whole different level, in fact, this one, because I was thinking, you know, do I really want to- 33:21.000 --> 33:31.000 A new guide dog now and, you know, just use the cane and but I'm so independent and because I do a lot of, like, karate stuff and I do this and that in the community. 33:31.000 --> 33:34.000 And so, 33:34.000 --> 33:36.000 I just wanted to keep my independence. 33:36.000 --> 33:42.000 And there's nothing nicer than just getting off of the train late at night and just saying, find the stairs. Yes. 33:42.000 --> 33:53.000 So, yeah, it's great to talk about, I think for anyone listening, remember, feel free to send us send us feedback, send us feedback. podcast@humanware.com . 33:53.000 --> 33:58.000 Thank you so much Michelle for joining us and being here for both of these, segments. 33:58.000 --> 33:59.000 So thanks again. 33:59.000 --> 34:02.000 Thank you guys. 34:02.000 --> 34:04.000 In my wanderings, 34:04.000 --> 34:11.000 I wandered down to Victoria virtually and found one of our colleagues down there from HumanWare- Larissa Byass. 34:11.000 --> 34:13.000 So. Hi. Thank you very much. 34:14.000 --> 34:17.000 Now, can you tell me first? 34:17.000 --> 34:20.000 So firstly, what what made you interested in joining HumanWare? 34:20.000 --> 34:24.000 And, and I guess part of that question is what's your background? 34:24.000 --> 34:26.000 And then how did you end up going to HumanWare? 34:26.000 --> 34:27.000 Yep. Okay. 34:27.000 --> 34:30.000 My background is I am an orthoptist. 34:31.000 --> 34:34.000 So I've worked in private clinics and hospitals. 34:35.000 --> 34:36.000 I've worked in research. 34:36.000 --> 34:38.000 I worked in epidemiology research. 34:38.000 --> 34:41.000 I've also coordinated clinical trials. 34:41.000 --> 34:47.000 But I got into HumanWare I used to work at Guide Dogs, in New South 34:47.000 --> 34:51.000 Wales, and I used to recommend a lot of HumanWare products. 34:51.000 --> 34:52.000 I liked the products. 34:52.000 --> 34:54.000 And then when I moved back to Melbourne, 34:54.000 --> 34:58.000 I was offered a job at HumanWare, and I thought, well, I like these products. 34:58.000 --> 35:01.000 So yes, okay, cool. 35:02.000 --> 35:03.000 Well, that makes sense. 35:03.000 --> 35:06.000 So what parts of Australia do you cover? 35:06.000 --> 35:10.000 Because I'm assuming you know the one person you don't actually do the whole of Australia. 35:10.000 --> 35:13.000 So what parts of Australia do you pretty much do? 35:13.000 --> 35:14.000 No I'm kidding, I'm kidding. 35:14.000 --> 35:19.000 Yes I cover, Victoria, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania. 35:19.000 --> 35:24.000 So half of Australia I suppose, is that mainly I mean is that appointment based 35:24.000 --> 35:25.000 Do you visit clients? 35:25.000 --> 35:28.000 Do you visit organizations. So in Victoria- 35:28.000 --> 35:29.000 Definitely. 35:30.000 --> 35:38.000 Home visits and user based as well as, organizations in other states. 35:38.000 --> 35:41.000 It is predominantly visiting organizations. 35:42.000 --> 35:55.000 When I do, make a visit to another state, sometimes an organization may want me to visit someone in their home or in their office, but that's usually determined by the organization's. 35:56.000 --> 35:58.000 Yeah. Okay. 35:58.000 --> 35:59.000 So what's sort of the process? 35:59.000 --> 36:09.000 So somebody brings up, HumanWare is on and I'd like a demo of, say, the new Prodigi for Windows device. 36:09.000 --> 36:12.000 What happens to that process? 36:12.000 --> 36:23.000 So if they're in Victoria, where I'm located, then I will contact them and we'll organize a time for me to come over, and I'll bring in and do a demo if they're in another state. 36:24.000 --> 36:35.000 And they contact us directly, I would probably recommend that they visit their local or contact their local organization. 36:35.000 --> 36:42.000 And then I would contact their local organization, giving them the heads up, and sort of help link those two together. 36:42.000 --> 36:50.000 And in some situations we could, post out a device to the end user. 36:50.000 --> 36:53.000 Depends on what the device is. Yeah. 36:53.000 --> 36:59.000 And we could do a virtual demonstration where they would have it there in front of them, and I could talk them through it. 36:59.000 --> 37:14.000 Or sometimes it's just a virtual demonstration where I have it with me and we have a virtual, appointment, and I can talk them through it that way, as well as a HumanWare person that, you know, across all the devices. 37:14.000 --> 37:18.000 But do you want to just want to mention the ones that you're primarily responsible for? 37:18.000 --> 37:19.000 Yeah. Okay. 37:19.000 --> 37:21.000 So I probably deal. 37:21.000 --> 37:25.000 Well, I definitely deal with the low vision products, more so than the Braille. 37:26.000 --> 37:29.000 Especially now that we have you on board. 37:29.000 --> 37:32.000 So we've got our Explore range. 37:32.000 --> 37:35.000 So there are electronic magnifiers. They're quite portable. 37:35.000 --> 37:48.000 We've got the Explore 5, which is quite small, five inch, that has just recently been upgraded to have a USB-C charging port instead of the old micro USB with. 37:48.000 --> 37:49.000 So that's nice. 37:49.000 --> 37:54.000 So we can get rid of that silly Micro USB cable, thank god. 37:55.000 --> 37:56.000 So that one's quite portable. 37:56.000 --> 38:05.000 Good for like, sort of just like spot reading tasks, taking me the shops to a restaurant, all that sort of stuff. We've got Explore 8. 38:05.000 --> 38:07.000 That's a little bit bigger. 38:07.000 --> 38:17.000 If you've got a low to moderate vision impairment, that's probably quite sufficient for you to be able to sit down and read the newspaper or, you know, a book. 38:18.000 --> 38:22.000 We've also just recently released the Explore 8 stand. 38:23.000 --> 38:25.000 So that's available now. 38:25.000 --> 38:34.000 And then we've got the Explore 12, which is bigger again, a little bit less portable, but fits into a laptop bag. 38:34.000 --> 38:35.000 And that's also available with the stand. 38:35.000 --> 38:38.000 That's, that's always been available with the stand. 38:38.000 --> 38:40.000 So that's our Explore range. 38:40.000 --> 38:48.000 We've also got the Reveal16 and the Reveal16i there are desktop, less portable options. 38:48.000 --> 38:51.000 They've they've both got a 16 inch screen. 38:51.000 --> 39:02.000 And the reveal 16 is just live magnification and the 16i has OCR which is text to speech basically. 39:02.000 --> 39:07.000 And then we've got a new product which is Prodigi for Windows. 39:07.000 --> 39:08.000 It's just come out. 39:08.000 --> 39:16.000 So that is live magnification and OCR that's available on your Windows device. 39:17.000 --> 39:27.000 So it's just a software program that you can purchase and if needed, if you don't have a document camera, there's a document camera that you can purchase along with it. 39:27.000 --> 39:28.000 Yeah. 39:28.000 --> 39:31.000 So that's, that's our newest low vision product. 39:31.000 --> 39:44.000 So we've got you in, in the sort of the southern part of sort of the southern-ish part of Australia so you're for sort of like, so you're demoing and showing people stuff and everything else. 39:44.000 --> 39:49.000 What happens with, technical support? There's a couple of different ways you can go about this. 39:49.000 --> 39:59.000 You can contact me directly if it's a basic, blindness device query. 39:59.000 --> 40:05.000 Often I can help, but if it's a little bit more technical and you again, you've contacted me directly, I'll usually say 40:05.000 --> 40:08.000 I'll have to get back to you and talk to one of my experts. 40:08.000 --> 40:17.000 So if you want to talk to an expert, in regarding Braille devices, then it's probably best that you contact, head office. 40:18.000 --> 40:39.000 And, if you call us on 0296862600, and then you select blindness tech support that will take you through to Arthur, and Arthur will be a lot more equipped to help you than I will in the more technical issues. 40:39.000 --> 40:44.000 Or you can email us on au.support@humanware.com . 40:44.000 --> 40:51.000 If it's low vision products then you can also contact our head office or you can contact me directly. 40:51.000 --> 40:59.000 My direct contact is 0488298819. 40:59.000 --> 41:02.000 And my email is Larissa which is 41:02.000 --> 41:05.000 L A R I S S A dot 41:05.000 --> 41:10.000 BYASS larissa.byass@humanware.com . 41:10.000 --> 41:11.000 So thank you for coming on. 41:11.000 --> 41:20.000 If people would want to get in contact with me at HumanWare myself you can email me david.woodbridge@humanware.com . 41:22.000 --> 41:26.000 Welcome back to the Cringeworthy Story of the month. 41:26.000 --> 41:29.000 And in really keeping with this O&M theme. 41:29.000 --> 41:32.000 And I'm sure David and Rachel, you have done this. 41:32.000 --> 41:36.000 I recently had an instance where had I not been prepared, I would have had a, 41:37.000 --> 41:43.000 I mean, I, I really I learned because of a previous story that I needed to be prepared. 41:43.000 --> 41:46.000 So I was actually in a hotel room, 41:46.000 --> 41:54.000 I had gone down to the vending machine to get a actually to get some tea. 41:54.000 --> 41:58.000 There was a tea station in the lobby. When I went down there. 41:58.000 --> 42:03.000 I unfolded my cane and, you know, to leave the room, I walk down, I am down there. 42:03.000 --> 42:12.000 And I folded my cane up to sit down and have a cup of tea, and the elastic band snapped in my cane, and I was reminded of a time. 42:12.000 --> 42:17.000 Now, fortunately, I was all right because I had a spare right up in my room and I thought, oh, I'm going to go get my spare cane. 42:17.000 --> 42:34.000 But I was reminded of a time in Toronto where I'm at the airport and I did not have a spare cane and a luggage cart- one of those big, unwieldy luggage rolling cart machines that you're supposed to take, like 19 suitcases on, ran my cane over and broke it. 42:34.000 --> 42:38.000 And I was at the beginning of a trip, and it was not good. 42:38.000 --> 42:39.000 It was not good. 42:39.000 --> 42:41.000 I was like, oh, dear. 42:41.000 --> 42:43.000 And I had no spare at the time. 42:43.000 --> 42:45.000 And this was early in my travel endeavors. 42:45.000 --> 42:48.000 But, I did I mean, to talk about cringeworthy. 42:48.000 --> 42:50.000 I didn't have a mobility aid. Right. 42:50.000 --> 42:57.000 And I'm in a, you know, an airport around in a very unfamiliar environment with a cane that while it was functional, 42:57.000 --> 43:01.000 I mean, it really was serving an identity cane kind of purpose at that point. 43:01.000 --> 43:05.000 As we talked about earlier with Michelle, I basically had no usable cane. 43:05.000 --> 43:12.000 I had something I could hold in front of me to give people the semblance that I am going to, you know, I'm blind and I'm going to need some assistance here. 43:12.000 --> 43:17.000 But I, I had I had no tip, and I was in big trouble. 43:17.000 --> 43:19.000 And I learned from that point forward to always have a spare. 43:19.000 --> 43:28.000 Have you ever had issues, either of you, where you've run into just these snafus and I have a lot of these these crazy snafu stories, but this one, these cane once always stand out. 43:28.000 --> 43:31.000 And I've now broken a couple of canes over the years. 43:31.000 --> 43:33.000 But how about you guys? 43:33.000 --> 43:36.000 I broke a cane at, an O&M conference. 43:36.000 --> 43:38.000 That's the best place ever to break a cane. 43:38.000 --> 43:40.000 That was my safety net story. 43:40.000 --> 43:45.000 It was a great place to break a cane because there were people who knew how to fix it or who was like, you know what? 43:45.000 --> 43:48.000 We have a spare at our table. I'll go get you one. 43:48.000 --> 43:50.000 So I feel very fortunate. 43:50.000 --> 43:52.000 That was my safety net. 43:52.000 --> 43:52.000 If you ever. 43:52.000 --> 43:58.000 And from that point on, I always carry your spare cane in my backpack because you never know. 43:58.000 --> 44:00.000 It is a wild world out there. 44:00.000 --> 44:03.000 Do we ask how you broke it, though? Yeah. What'd you do? 44:03.000 --> 44:06.000 Somebody ended up tripping over it and ended up breaking it. 44:06.000 --> 44:09.000 So keep a spare with you at all times. 44:09.000 --> 44:12.000 So this is a this is a funny, cringe worthy moment. 44:12.000 --> 44:16.000 So I don't know if I told you this guys this story, but I do karate. So, 44:17.000 --> 44:23.000 I walked in there one day with my white cane and I had my cane out, which is fine. 44:23.000 --> 44:27.000 And then I had this person come up to me and say, don't you know the rules of the dojo? 44:27.000 --> 44:29.000 And I went, pardon me. 44:29.000 --> 44:33.000 And I said, no, using your bow staff off the mat. 44:33.000 --> 44:37.000 Why are you why are you waving it around like that? 44:37.000 --> 44:38.000 That's extremely dangerous. 44:38.000 --> 44:40.000 Don't you understand there's young children around? 44:40.000 --> 44:42.000 Or you can hit with it. 44:42.000 --> 44:46.000 And I said, it's a it's a white cane for blind person. 44:46.000 --> 44:48.000 They went, what? I said, it's a cane. 44:48.000 --> 44:50.000 It's not a bo staff. 44:50.000 --> 44:52.000 And they go, I'm so sorry. 44:52.000 --> 44:56.000 It just looked like one of the real bo that we use for karate. 44:56.000 --> 44:59.000 Know it not. 44:59.000 --> 45:02.000 And I think when we're kids, we all lose our canes, right? 45:02.000 --> 45:04.000 We don't we don't remember where they are. 45:04.000 --> 45:05.000 Like, we forget them. 45:05.000 --> 45:07.000 We don't want to use them. We leave them at home. 45:07.000 --> 45:08.000 We leave them at school. 45:08.000 --> 45:18.000 And it's like, I don't know, you know, there's nothing worse about trying to get on a train and having your cane just disappear out of your hand between the platform and the train onto the track. 45:18.000 --> 45:21.000 I have heard of this happening on an airplane as well. 45:21.000 --> 45:26.000 Someone who was a very good friend of mine lost a cane this way from the edge of the jet bridge into the plane. 45:26.000 --> 45:32.000 Went straight down and they- so they decide to get on the plane because they're like, well, I'm not going to hold up the line here. 45:32.000 --> 45:36.000 And they're sitting and someone brings their cane and says, yeah. 45:36.000 --> 45:40.000 The baggage team figured somebody dropped this. 45:41.000 --> 45:43.000 It's like this white cane came falling through the jet bridge. 45:43.000 --> 45:45.000 You know? They rescued it. 45:45.000 --> 45:48.000 That's amazing, I love that. Well that's good. 45:48.000 --> 45:49.000 I have left multiple canes. 45:49.000 --> 45:52.000 This happened more than once on the roof of the car. 45:53.000 --> 45:56.000 Now, you might think, Peter, why would you put a cane on the roof of the car? 45:56.000 --> 46:01.000 And I'll tell you, with two really young kids, oftentimes I will fold my cane. 46:01.000 --> 46:06.000 And as I'm getting them in the car seat, instead of throwing it into the front where I sit, 46:06.000 --> 46:10.000 I put it on the top so I can get my kids in the car seat and then just automatically get in the car. 46:10.000 --> 46:13.000 We're driving away and I hear it and I'm like, oh no, no, no, no. 46:15.000 --> 46:16.000 And it was gone. 46:16.000 --> 46:19.000 Like we were like cruising. At that point, there's nothing I could do. 46:19.000 --> 46:22.000 I think the moral of the story is always carry around two canes. 46:22.000 --> 46:24.000 If you at least you want be using an spare one. 46:24.000 --> 46:25.000 Keep that in mind. 46:25.000 --> 46:31.000 Don't have your own cringeworthy stories, although we would love to hear them. podcast@humanware.com. 46:31.000 --> 46:35.000 If you would like to share a cringeworthy cane story and I will be gathering, I have- 46:35.000 --> 46:40.000 I have received a couple of very lovely, pieces of feedback, that email address. 46:40.000 --> 46:50.000 So thank you to those of you who have sent, something in anyone who you know, anyone who would like to send it in further, we can definitely comment on them on a future podcast. 46:50.000 --> 46:50.000 So thank you. 46:53.000 --> 46:58.000 All right everyone, it's time for the tips and tricks part of our show. 46:58.000 --> 47:05.000 And today, keeping with the theme of O&M and we do have an O&M device, an orientation, a mobility product called the StellarTrek. 47:05.000 --> 47:20.000 I'm going to talk a bit about map browsing mode, and some of you may have heard me do demonstrations on this in the past because it's not new to HumanWare what map browsing mode allows you to do is it lets you virtually simulate a location, right? 47:20.000 --> 47:29.000 So you place yourself at a virtual, spot and you can move around the map as though you were walking the street grid at that location. 47:30.000 --> 47:43.000 So I'm sitting in my basement here in Chicago, and I'm actually going to virtually, we're going to walk around, the neighborhood of a friend of mine who just moved into a new condo and the River North area of Chicago. 47:44.000 --> 47:47.000 And I was just over there, and I dropped a landmark at that location. 47:48.000 --> 47:52.000 And now I've come home and I actually want to check out and see what bus stops are around there. 47:52.000 --> 48:01.000 So I'm going to pull up that location, and we are going to virtually walk around some of his streets so that when I actually go there in person, I will know the lay of the land. 48:02.000 --> 48:02.000 All right. 48:02.000 --> 48:09.000 So I have my StellarTrek and I am going to select a landmark from my list of recorded landmarks. 48:09.000 --> 48:18.000 And these could either be voice tags or they could be text depending on or address depending on how you want to save your landmark. 48:18.000 --> 48:23.000 So I'm going to press the go to key, which is above our directional arrows. 48:23.000 --> 48:25.000 On the StellarTrek we have two buttons. 48:25.000 --> 48:29.000 We have a button that contains a hash mark that has our back button and the right button. 48:29.000 --> 48:34.000 So again above our directional arrows, the left button is back and the right button is our. 48:34.000 --> 48:37.000 Select a landmark or go to key. 48:37.000 --> 48:39.000 We're going to press that go to button here. 48:39.000 --> 48:48.000 Select a landmark as your destination. 55 landmarks Costco Chicago, Illinois. 48:48.000 --> 48:51.000 Press confirm to start route in pedestrian mode. 48:51.000 --> 48:54.000 So you heard that Costco is my first landmark. 48:54.000 --> 48:56.000 Now these are you can sort these in many different ways. 48:56.000 --> 48:58.000 You can even sort them by the cities that you're in. 48:58.000 --> 49:00.000 And I have lots of landmarks. 49:00.000 --> 49:13.000 I do a lot of travel, and I love to drop landmarks, even just at entrances to parks when I'm with my kids or, where certain bus stops may be, you know, if they're, if I, if I don't want to just look at the map, if I just want the landmark to be spoken. 49:13.000 --> 49:19.000 So I use this in these landmarks in many ways, but the one I want to find is actually the, the, the. 49:19.000 --> 49:20.000 I have this sorted oldest to newest. 49:20.000 --> 49:27.000 So Costco was recorded long and long ago, but I am going to move to the left here, sort and enter an address. 49:27.000 --> 49:30.000 After we have enter an address 49:30.000 --> 49:33.000 KR, Chicago, Illinois. 49:33.000 --> 49:39.000 Press confirm to start route in pedestrian mode that just says KR and that is because that is what I've named this landmark. 49:39.000 --> 49:43.000 And it says that if I press confirm right now, I would be guided to that landmark. 49:44.000 --> 49:45.000 But I don't want that. 49:45.000 --> 49:52.000 I'm going to press my down arrow, and I have some other options here of what I can do with a pre saved or recorded landmark 49:52.000 --> 49:56.000 Start in motorized mode, press confirm to start route and motorized mode. 49:56.000 --> 50:01.000 If I wanted vehicle instructions, I would choose this, but I'm gonna press my down arrow one more time. 50:01.000 --> 50:06.000 Enter map browsing mode, press confirm to enter map browsing mode from this location. 50:07.000 --> 50:14.000 And at this point, this is where and again I can move down and I could delete this landmark or rename this landmark if I had a bad recording, maybe there was a bus driving by or something. 50:14.000 --> 50:15.000 I could rerecord it once 50:15.000 --> 50:22.000 I'm in a quieter environment, but at this point I want to enter the map browsing mode at this location, so I'm going to press confirm. 50:22.000 --> 50:24.000 Entering map browsing mode. 50:24.000 --> 50:34.000 You are currently on West Institute Place heading east and we hear that I am currently again, I've simulated this location. 50:34.000 --> 50:37.000 I'm on West Institute Place and I'm heading east. 50:37.000 --> 50:45.000 If I push my where am I button, which is our bottom left key below our directional arrows near 314 West Institute Place. 50:46.000 --> 50:48.000 You hear that I'm told the address that I'm out. 50:48.000 --> 50:52.000 So I'm standing in front of 314 West Institute Place here in Chicago. 50:53.000 --> 50:54.000 I am facing east. 50:54.000 --> 50:58.000 So if I press my up arrow I will walk forward or east at this point. 50:58.000 --> 51:11.000 So let's go forward and see where we end up in 281ft four way intersection with stop sign West Institute Place crossing North Franklin Street. 51:11.000 --> 51:16.000 So I'm now at Institute and Franklin, and I hear that this intersection has a stop sign. 51:16.000 --> 51:19.000 And I will hear if it's a three way or a four way. 51:19.000 --> 51:22.000 Now, what that doesn't tell me is, you know, is it a four way stop? 51:22.000 --> 51:24.000 I will tell you right now, this is not a four way stop. 51:24.000 --> 51:27.000 Franklin is a quite a busy street. 51:27.000 --> 51:32.000 But Institute Place has a stop sign at this intersection, so I could, you know, turn left or right. 51:32.000 --> 51:35.000 Let's turn right and let's actually walk again. 51:35.000 --> 51:38.000 We're heading east. We get to this intersection, we're going to turn right. 51:38.000 --> 51:42.000 So I'll press my right arrow on your right, North Franklin Street. 51:42.000 --> 51:44.000 We've turned right. We're on Franklin. 51:44.000 --> 51:48.000 And now if I press my up arrow, we will be heading south because we've turned. 51:48.000 --> 51:51.000 We're heading east. We've turned right. We're now heading south. 51:51.000 --> 52:04.000 I'm going to press my up arrow and walk south to the next intersection in 295ft, four way intersection with traffic light North Franklin Street, crossing West Chicago Avenue. 52:04.000 --> 52:06.000 So this is a pretty big intersection. 52:06.000 --> 52:09.000 Franklin in Chicago, in the River North area here. 52:09.000 --> 52:12.000 And we hear that it has a traffic light. 52:12.000 --> 52:16.000 Now, at this point, you know, I hear it's a four way. 52:16.000 --> 52:18.000 And I could certainly go left or right. 52:18.000 --> 52:23.000 Let's turn right though, and let's look back down on your right, West Chicago Avenue. 52:23.000 --> 52:25.000 So now I'm going to be heading west. 52:25.000 --> 52:33.000 I'm going to hit my up arrow and walk west in 413ft four way intersection with traffic light West 52:33.000 --> 52:37.000 Chicago Avenue crossing North Orleans Street. 52:38.000 --> 52:40.000 So here's Chicago in Orleans. 52:40.000 --> 52:42.000 If I press up arrow again, I would continue straight. 52:42.000 --> 52:44.000 And again, we're heading west on Chicago. 52:44.000 --> 52:50.000 At this point, even when you're in virtual map browsing mode, you are able to pull up list of landmarks. 52:50.000 --> 52:56.000 And those also do contain transit stops here in North America, as well as in some other spots in Europe. 52:56.000 --> 53:02.000 We have not found consistent transit accuracy, so we do not have, transit stops overlaid on these maps. 53:02.000 --> 53:05.000 These are HERE maps 53:05.000 --> 53:10.000 I am going to press and hold my where am I key to pull up a list of landmarks that are around me? 53:11.000 --> 53:20.000 What's around 55 items? 1- 37 Sedgwick Bus Station, 65ft. 53:20.000 --> 53:24.000 Press confirm to enter route preview in pedestrian mode from this location. 53:24.000 --> 53:27.000 And we hear that there is a bus stop right away. 53:27.000 --> 53:30.000 The bus stop is shown the number 37 Sedgwick bus stop. 53:31.000 --> 53:37.000 And what happens is again, the transit stops will be listed here to certainly and in North America. 53:37.000 --> 53:39.000 And I can move left and right through this list. 53:39.000 --> 53:46.000 Now I've just pulled up every single landmark that is around and we here again that I have some options even within. 53:46.000 --> 53:53.000 So let's just, you know, if I pull up these landmarks, even though I'm virtually browsing, if I press my down arrow, 53:54.000 --> 54:00.000 Enter route preview in motorized mode, I can get a route preview for this, but I'm gonna keep coming down. Report point of interest. 54:00.000 --> 54:03.000 Press confirm to report invalid point of interest. 54:03.000 --> 54:05.000 You can report this point of interest to us. 54:05.000 --> 54:08.000 That would be necessary if you wanted to flag an old business. 54:09.000 --> 54:11.000 You know, if there was something that was no longer around. 54:11.000 --> 54:15.000 We're not we are certainly not the keepers of these maps HERE. 54:15.000 --> 54:18.000 Maps is and the data could be out of date. 54:18.000 --> 54:22.000 And if you find businesses that are out of date, these will then if you flag them, they will be sent to us. 54:22.000 --> 54:25.000 The next time you turn your unit on and connect to Wi-Fi. 54:26.000 --> 54:34.000 And we would be able to then get in touch with HERE maps and report this as being a bad landmark set as a possible destination. 54:34.000 --> 54:38.000 Press confirms this at this point of interest as a possible destination. 54:38.000 --> 54:40.000 So here we have the set as a possible destination option. 54:40.000 --> 54:48.000 And this would be where we are able to save this number 37 bus stop as a landmark, meaning it could be chosen as a destination. 54:48.000 --> 54:51.000 A landmark does not have to be a destination. 54:51.000 --> 54:53.000 You certainly could have landmarks that you maybe never want to navigate to. 54:53.000 --> 55:01.000 Maybe just again, something you may walk by that you want to be notified of, but you don't want to ever see them as actual, destination. 55:01.000 --> 55:08.000 If I come down one more enter route preview in pedestrian mode, press confirm to enter Route Preview in pedestrian mode. 55:08.000 --> 55:11.000 From this location, I can enter preview even in virtual mode. 55:11.000 --> 55:23.000 So this can be very useful depending on where it is you want to start and end, and a very helpful feature allowing you to get the lay of the land or understand where and you know the street grid is or where locations are of things. 55:23.000 --> 55:34.000 Before you go to a hotel or before you go to that, friend's house, or before you go to that restaurant you want to walk to and this is different from previewing an existing route or route you have walked. 55:34.000 --> 55:44.000 This is a way to virtually place yourself at any given point and walk around to understand and build that environmental literacy of that location. 55:44.000 --> 55:46.000 And that is our tip and trick for this week. 55:49.000 --> 55:55.000 All right, everybody, time to talk about where we will be, where you can find us in upcoming shows. 55:55.000 --> 56:08.000 From April 8th to April 10th, we will be at the principals of the schools for the blind, or POSB Stem Institute, that will be taking place in Fremont, California at the Best Western Plus Garden Court. 56:08.000 --> 56:11.000 That will be a great time to come see Rachel. 56:11.000 --> 56:19.000 She will be there holding it down, and right after that, she will continue to be in California with Kevin and some other HumanWare representation. 56:19.000 --> 56:22.000 And we have presentations at the CTE BVI. 56:22.000 --> 56:24.000 We love our acronyms in this field. 56:24.000 --> 56:35.000 The California Braille Transcribers and Vision Teachers Conference, that'll be taking place from April 10th to the 13th at the San Francisco Airport Marriott. 56:35.000 --> 56:38.000 So come see us at either of those events. 56:38.000 --> 56:50.000 And as we get into the summer and the late spring, we'll look at other things in Europe and summer shows and lots of fun places where you can come say hi and who knows, maybe even tell us you're a fan of the podcast. 56:50.000 --> 56:52.000 Thanks everybody. 56:52.000 --> 56:55.000 If you have comments or suggestions, we'd love to hear from you. 56:55.000 --> 56:58.000 Please send them the podcast@humanware.com 56:59.000 --> 57:02.000 That's podcast@humanware.com 57:02.000 --> 57:03.000 We'll see you next month.