All right, let's do this. Peanut, if you're staying in the room, no talking. Hello and welcome to the Photo Work Podcast, the talky and touchy feely version of my book, 40 photographers on process and Practice. Hello, everyone. I'm Sascha Wolf Recording from Woodstock, New York, and joined as usual by my good friend and producer, Mr. Michael Chovindalton. Hello, Michael.
Oh, good morning.
Morning. Good morning. On a. I don't know about where you are, but a rainy Sunday. I do assume it's Sunday where you are, but I don't know about the rain.
Yes, that's right. Right now we're in the same time zone.
Yep.
Yeah.
A little dreary out today, but I have a lot of chores to do, so it's okay.
Good day for chores.
Chore day.
Yeah.
How have you.
Good, good. It is a chore day. My son's 18th birthday is coming up and we're planning to have friends over and then he has a graduation party at his girlfriend's house and we're co sponsoring that.
I like it. Cooperation. It's what we need now.
Exactly.
I was out canoeing yesterday. On the wall.
How nice.
Yeah. And Jess and I saw all these amazing birds. This could so turn into a Nat Geo podcast. Oh, yeah. If I just let myself go.
I'm gonna put in some bird and nature sounds in the background.
It was really incredible. I mean, we've had some really lucky trips lately as far as, like, wildlife spotting.
How amazing.
We saw probably six or eight young great blue heron, which, if anyone's, they're so big and beautiful and amazing. It was really just so incredible. And then just an enormous hawk. Normally I see small hawks around here, but this thing was really incredible. Yeah. So my parents were really big birders and I used to tease them about it. And, you know, apple doesn't fall far from tree, as it turns out.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, I don't. I'm not a birder, but I will say that, like, yes, I'm getting more and more seduced as I'm out hiking or canoeing or whatever, doing. I am getting more seduced and I am more interested in knowing, like, what was that thing?
You know, I think. And I think. I think there's a. There was. For me, anyway, there was a need to be out and connected to nature when we were all trapped for a while. And that did not go away.
Oh, my God. No. I've always been very. I've always been the outdoorsy one in my tribe, but, yeah, now I just. I Mean. And also, you know, look, we're sort of. I mean, I'm behind a desk. Behind a desk. Could be. Am I in front of the desk? I don't know. I'm behind a computer. At a desk.
Hovering over.
Large desk. You know, most days. And, you know, on my days off, it's like. Yeah. More and more. I just want to take advantage of every. In fact, yesterday we were out canoeing, and then at the very end of the day, around 5:30, we looked at each other and we were just. We were in the car on our way back, and we. Or truck, to be specific. And then we just said, let's get a couple hours of climbing in, Michael. You'll appreciate that. So we ran. We were. So we were basically, you know, we were 10 minutes from the gunk. So we just. Which is where we climb all the time. So we just ran over. So we had a. Got a canoe in and a climb.
What a day.
Yeah, it was a day, actually. We went climbing Friday night also, and I had my first significant. Not significant, nothing bad happened, but had my first scary fall.
Oh, okay.
I mean, I did hit. You know, when you fall straight, it's not really a big deal, but I actually.
But if you swing right.
And I. Because I had sort of veered off of the top rope course.
Yep.
So I swung back about 10ft and I hit like this big outcropping.
Yeah.
But it was like one of those things that reminded me a little bit of, like, when I was younger, I spent my summers on this little farm in Vermont. We had horses and what? And I was always scared of being thrown from a horse. And then the first time I was thrown from a horse, I actually was just so relieved because it was like, oh, it finally happened, you know, and I'm fine. And of course, these things, you cannot be fine. But actually, I was sort of relieved when I fell the other day. Cause I was like, okay, that was manageable. It did really hurt. And I scratched up my back and I have a big bruise and whatever. But I didn't, you know, nothing horrendous happened. And, you know, we're super safe. Just, you know, and I'm wearing a helmet and I, you know, not going to die.
Well, now you've had that fall, I'll tell you the story that I never shared with you about my climbing at the Shawangunks, which is how, my friend.
I hope this story doesn't have a tragic ending.
No, no, no.
This is a family podcast.
It's dumb. It's Dumb, but not tragic.
Okay.
He decided that I should. First thing I should learn is how to fall. So we're standing at the top. Sounds like a sadist with a top rope. And he's like, all right, we're going to belay down a little bit. And as I'm starting to belay pushes me off the side.
Okay. I hope you're not friends with that person anymore.
Good golly, yes. That was how I learned to fall. Yes. Rock climbing.
It is scary. I mean, I've fallen before, but I've never swung out like that. You sort of feel like you've just sort of lost all control. You're like, I don't know how this is going to end exactly, but probably with a thud.
But once you do it, though, and not that we wanted to, but if it happens again, you do get more used to it.
Yes, definitely. Definitely. Well, it's so fun and really enjoying learning. And, you know, Jess is a very serious climber and quite the core workout. Yes, it's a very good core workout. Although I've just ordered two new knee braces because it is in my advanced. At my advanced age, all rock climbers.
Will know the expression jelly away. But, yeah, let's move on. Okay.
Yeah. So we have, I think, a really exciting announcement that I'm gonna let you take care of. But it's really just for, you know, on a personal note, sort of what you and I together have accomplished. But anyway.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we are approaching our 100th episode.
Crazy.
And we are so grateful to all of our guests and, of course, to our listeners who have provided so much great feedback, who have been with so many with us all along the way. And in the coming months, we're going to be sharing some reflections on how the podcast has evolved this past five years.
Crazy.
Five years. I know.
Yeah.
We'll highlight some memorable past episodes, but we also want to hear from you, from our listeners, and we would love for you to share what the podcast, what the Photo Work Podcast has meant to you. So send us your audio messages one minute max, because we're hoping to get a lot of them or your written thoughts to infotoworkfoundation.com with the subject line Episode 100. And please include your first name and location in both the audio and the written messages. So we would love you to share what the Photo Work Podcast has meant to you. And this is. We came up with some questions, but, you know, use these as a guideline. Answer one of these however you want to do it what has the photo work podcast meant to you? How has it influenced your relationship with photography? Which episode has resonated with you the most, and what's the most valuable lesson you've learned? So, you know, take that as a guideline or go ahead and answer one of those questions. And again, send an audio message one minute max, or an email to infopotoworkfoundation.com and in the subject line of that email, make sure you include episode 100. And again, if you need to review, this will all be in the show notes.
And just to be clear, we want to play these on an episode. So if you send us an audio message or if you write us a message, we'd like to play the audio message or quote you in an episode. So, yes, keep that in mind.
Good. To highlight that we're sending these in and they may be aired. And that's what we would love. We'd love to air them. Yes. Selected submissions will be featured in our special 100th episode, and everyone who participates will be entered to win exclusive photo work appreciation gifts. So, yeah.
Which basically means we don't know what they are either. Let's be honest. I think it basically. What is a photo appreciation gift? Taylor wrote this.
Yes, that's right.
I read that and I was like, what are those? I guess it's like a photo work book signed by me, if that means anything. Some stickers. I did do something fun a few years ago. We did something like this. Not this, but something like this. And I sent three different people, I think, a few of my favorite books. So I just, like, sent out other books. I have been known to hand out copies of Robert Adams Beauty and Photography. So that could be coming someone's way with some stickers. Stickers will just be a part of everything. Let's just be honest.
I think so. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we don't have mugs and totes yet, so we can't send those, but could send you a random, like, you know, I heart Woodstock sticker or something. Anyway. All right. Well, it's all very exciting.
No, I mean, this will be a lot of fun. Yeah, this is going to be a lot of fun. It's so tempting to sort of just start talking about our past five years. We're going to save that. Yes, we're going to save that for our 100th episode.
And maybe someday we'll even do a blooper reel. There's. There's. God knows there's enough material.
Yes.
Including today. So let's talk about today's episode, it was a conversation with the great street photographer. I sort of say that, like, sometimes I don't like to use that term. To me, that that's a very tight box.
Yes.
The great photographer, slash street photographer, Daniel Arnold, who is one of the most yummy people. He's just so warm and honest and big hearted and I just, I love talking to him. He's. He's a wonderful person. And I really enjoyed the conversation. It was so. It was one of those conversations where I think you guys out there in listening land will feel like you were just sort of eavesdropping on a conversation between a couple friends. Yeah. What did you think?
In fact, I think Daniel refers to that street work as street life work. But yes, it is very engaging and very open and honest and probably one of the best discussions about the influence of social media on photography I think we've ever had.
Yeah, definitely.
For those of you who know Daniel Arnold and those you don't, you'll learn in this episode that Instagram really helped his career quite a bit. He was a very early adopter and gained a huge audience. And, you know, he credits it with just helping him to be where he is right now. But he also talks about the pressures of it. He talks about it as being in a hall of mirrors and just this constant tracking of what everyone's doing and how he had to also change direction because of that. You know, to be honest, he's still reconciling with it all and that really comes through in this episode and I think really important. I just think it's so important with the way we're just staring at what everyone else is doing.
Yes, definitely. Well, okay, let's get to it and continue. Thanks to our audience for listening. Our audience keeps growing, which is so exciting.
Oh, and before I forget, there'll be a little hiatus in August while we collect your responses and get ready for our 100th episode.
We love you guys. So, yes. Big heartfelt thanks. And Michael, if you don't mind, please take it away.
My pleasure. And here is your conversation with Daniel Arnold.
Daniel Arnold, welcome to the Photo Work podcast. It's wonderful to have you on. I've been really looking forward to hanging out with you this morning. So thank you so much for being here.
Oh, my total pleasure. And honestly, my honor. You're the best. I appreciate it.
Thank you. So, as I think, you know, we start the podcast with the guests telling the listeners, you know, about their journey. And I'm always really interested. People are always Surprised when I ask them to start at the very beginning. But I'm always really interested in where people were born and raised and, you know, so, yeah, start at the beginning.
All right, you got it. So my parents are. My mom is a New York Jew and my dad is a rural Wisconsin dairy farmer. And they met in Madison in college because that was where the action was and whatever it was 1969. And so I was born in Madison, lasted about two and a half years there, and landed in Milwaukee, where my parents got busy having five more kids. Actually, there was already one by the time we got there. But, yes, by the end of that movement, there were six of us and grew up in Milwaukee. Was, you know, I'm the oldest. So I kind of had this built in, leader of the pack thing, but in a way that I never. I don't know, I was always kind of a passive responsibility. I always kind of was like a. I don't know, I led by esp. And eventually I. I don't know. I don't know how much the details in between are relevant. You know, I went to high school like everybody, and it was weird and hard and I wasn't a cool guy, but I did fine. And then I went to college and I studied English and I had a minor in film studies just incidentally, because, you know, what, are you going to not watch movies in class if they give you the option? And by that logic, I also took. Yeah, yeah. I also took like, woodworking and bowling and you can smoke cigarettes in bowling class. So at that time, that was very exciting.
Where were you? Where college was this?
I started at University of Minnesota and I finished at UW Milwaukee. I came home to finish and then I got whisked away before I could even graduate. I mean, I did graduate, but I didn't go to graduation, but got whisked away to New York. I have a cousin who was running for judge at the time on the Lower east side, and she needed campaign help. So I came and I went door to door in the east side projects all day, every day for a summer, speaking a very messy approximation of Spanish. And, you know, like, from day one, there was no way anybody was getting me out of the city.
You just fell in love with it.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was like the most romantic introduction, too. It's like community in a way that, you know, I guess I don't know that I've had access to that sort of breadth of city population since. Maybe that's wrong. Maybe I'm getting romantic. But anyways, it was a really, it was a really great start. You know, standing on the subway platform at 7 in the morning, catching the rush hour people begging them to vote for my cousin. It was a great start. And then from there I hustled hard. I look back on it now and there is such, I don't know, desperate Midwestern ingenuity. I managed to work as a writer for 10 years, roughly in a music adjacent way. Although I ended up at Nickelodeon, which had no music to it, but was goofy and fun. And then throughout all that, I always just had my friend the camera. And it was, it's amazing to think what a completely different time it was pre Instagram. I mean, just to think what, what the phone has done to, I don't know, public perception, whatever. But like, I didn't even know photographer was, was a job, right? It wasn't something I aspired to, it wasn't something I pursued in any academic way. It was just like a nice way to navigate a city that I felt too green to be worthy of. And so it was great. This, this thing that ended up sort of defining a whole big chapter of my life just developed under the radar totally organically, and then it got there. I don't know, it just like kind of all came to a head on its own. You know, Instagram came into our lives and pretty quickly just blew up in my hands. Not in a way that would be recognizable now, but in early days, you know, it was. I had exciting people who were following and commenting and kind of encouraging me, and eventually they talked me right off the edge of my life. I pretty abruptly quit everything and crossed my fingers and just started spending all of my time wandering around and looking at the city and trying to catch it looking crazy. And, you know, from there I think the story becomes a little more public because it all happened on this app, more or less. But it's been a pretty, from my vantage point, pretty interesting evolution. You know, I started really, really scrappy. I mean, genuinely didn't know how to use a camera. I just knew that I had this really insatiable appetite for pictures that was pushed along by this sort of cocaine incentive of Instagram. And I don't know, I guess it also happened when I was, I quit that last job when I was 33 and had had, you know, enough of a taste of like young man, name brand, flashy New York that I didn't really have any interest in. I guess, sort of arriving. You know, I had this very distinct vision very early on that I could put A book on the table at Urban Outfitters any day, and it would just be a jail that I would sit in for the rest of my life. So if I had any intention from the beginning, it was always just to like keep, keep breaking it and seeing how it came back together. I've been saying forever that the longer anything takes, the better it'll be. So it's been pretty slow and indulgent, but also I've been miraculously well received and spoiled by that sort of industry because, I don't know, fashion loves novelty. And the thing that I did just kind of fit in a lot of places. And I was very curious and had no ego about it. And so I would just. I'm still. I'm kind of in the mode of trying anything. And, you know, that gets me to the point where two years ago I was feeling a little too comfortable in my city Scouring, which was sort of designed at the beginning to confront discomfort and push me into a life that felt unavailable to me. And so when that started feeling very comfortable, I got myself an agent essentially to hire somebody to make me uncomfortable, which they have done wonderfully. And so lately I still spend as much of my free time as I can manage wandering around. But more and more I'm doing work for hire now and sort of taking the same attitude and approach into jobs as I do, you know, just walking around and I think, I don't know, most significantly just giving myself new opportunities to make mistakes, like put new pressure in new places and make mistakes and see what happens. And, you know, that's always been sort of my go to method of evolution. So I'm trying to stay uncomfortable.
I have a lot of questions. I'm going to try and ask them in somewhat chronological order in terms of how they came up. And the first one is, you know, whenever I hear, which is often that someone sort of fell into photography. I mean, that's a very common refrain. I'm always, as I'm sure listeners know, because I always ask this question, super curious, like, what are you looking at? As far as, you know, other photographers work at this point, like something I assume has to be guiding you in to some degree. So, you know, are you looking at photo books? Are you going to shows? Are you like, is there, you know, someone whose work ethic or process or output was some sort of North Star? Or are you just completely winging it and you don't even know who Garry Winogrand is? Or like, where are you in terms.
Like when you're starting in the Beginning there was. I mean, I took, like, a freshman college photo class, right? A black and white darkroom class, you know, which was. I think I got a C or a D, because I just. I wasn't interested in learning how to take pictures. Like, the teacher takes pictures, which, you know, is fine. It was good exposure. And I did, you know, he did show us a little slideshow where I saw the Winogrand chimp picture and maybe the. The one with a woman laughing as she's dancing.
Two very famous pictures of Winogrands. Yeah.
Yeah. And so that was definitely in my head. I think early on, though, it was also the time of Ryan McGinley. I was new in New York, and he was, like, the crown prince of New York. And so in those early days, there was some inclination to, like, get my pretty friends to go upstate and run in a cornfield or something. But it was really. It was. For a long time, it was much more practical than that because I was too scared to take Winogrand pictures. And, you know, the McGinley thing, I loved what he did. It was fun to experiment with, but for the most part, I was using the camera more as, like a placeholder, as a timekeeper. I mean, for years, the bulk of my sort of photographic output was just standing in the front row of concerts trying to figure out how to use a camera, which was, you know, it kind of. It went naturally with what I was doing for work, and it was like the early blog era, and it was just before the front row of every concert became overloaded with, you know, SLRs with Big Crane flashes on them. I think that that's probably over now, but it was a real hot moment of that. But, you know, I think to begin with, I was. I really. I needed sort of a force field to feel okay in that room. So that was the main. That was the main motivation back then. I mean, now we're not on video. You can't see this hoarder's nest that I'm talking to you from, but I'm buried in books. I mean, so many books, honestly, that I start to wonder if I even like books anymore, because I get them by the pile and I look at them once, and then, you know, they start collecting dust. But that's not to say that. I don't know. I'm very immersed. I'm very immersed. I'm constantly looking at old and new work and, you know, if I had to identify sort of sentimental North Stars now, you know, it's nothing. Nothing shocking more than his Work. Robert Frank's attitude, like I wish he was around and I could go talk to him. Not that I would. I can't stand to impose myself on anybody, but you know, just his sort of restlessness and his commitment to telling his truth from where he was standing. I really, I really relate to that before I even aspire to it. And then I feel really inspired by sort of the Rosalind Fox Solomon, this new vein of work that sort of got overlooked in its time. And not because of that, but because there was this opportunity for all this really great work to accumulate and creating this opportunity later for Frida. Take Stock at like 60, 70 years old and see like what stories have I involuntarily told here? To me that's the most interesting thing. I mean, that's what sort of sustains my energy. Because day to day, photo to photo, I'm like, do I even know what I'm doing? Is this worth anything at all? But the accumulation, sort of the long game stays very interesting to me, I guess as like, I don't know, an opportunity to reveal something rather than show something or choose something. Like what does this dogged commitment to this arbitrary thing reveal about me after a long over commitment reveal about you?
To you, it sounds like learning about your own unconscious interests and desires. Yeah, no, that's really fascinating and beautiful and it also seems to me, and this may sound very pedestrian, but I actually think it's really important. So I want to mention it. It seems to me like you and I'm like this, I relate to this and maybe I'm just imposing my sort of way of being on you, but it seems like you're very routine oriented and that there's some comfort derived in the routine of photographing, even just for the sake of the routine itself. Does that sound right?
Definitely, definitely. I could wear the same clothes every day, eat the same thing every day and not even notice for probably a month or two. Yeah, it's. It's a purpose. It's like an organizing principle. And I don't have much access to that kind of order in the way that I conduct every other part of my life. So it's, it's a very nice sort of guiding force to keep me focused.
I always think that these routines are also a way of lessening anxiety, sort of for sure that the disorder is in our own nervous system and the routine is the.
Definitely, definitely. Well, and so much of it, I think so much of the time and concentration that's committed to making work. I mean this is basically exactly what you're saying. But to put a different angle on it, it like compensates for this, this sort of lack of executive function where there, there are big parts of my life that, you know, like the parts that everybody's supposed to do, they're like keeping up, being responsible, being a grown up. There's parts of that that I just have found. The further I get into this, the harder it gets. But just like I cannot wrangle them. And so in the absence of being able to perform adulthood, it is, you're absolutely right, a great relief to at least have this unreasonable commitment that is not necessarily pleasant or comfortable that I am throwing myself into just to show like I can focus, I can do something, I can be productive.
You know, I know that your commercial career has really taken off, so. Because I see your work out there in the world. So tell us a little bit about. And so, you know, for folks who don't know your work, you know, you are basically a street photographer. You shoot primarily in color. And you know, I think you're work is very, I was going to say sui generis, but it's just one of those words that most people have to go to a dictionary. And I'm not that person that has to send someone to a dictionary. So that makes me feel bad. But I, I think your work is very unique. Yeah, you have, you have. It's like, you know, it's that thing that really happens with street photography where it sort of comes goes back to what we were just talking about a few topics ago. As far as learning your own unconscious by looking at your pictures. It's like you're shooting. Street photography is happening so fast that the decision to make the picture, to press that button, is really an unconscious experience in so many ways. And I think, you know, it's why with really good street photographers, you really do have a sense that you're getting to know them because there's something very primal and, you know, deeply felt about the choices. And you know, I find your work like you, very compassionate, sensitive. Even when the pictures are funny, which many of them are, they're not mean spirited, which is in my opinion extremely important. You really create beautiful compositions even when they're sort of askew. The color plays a role, which a lot of times people forget that if they're gonna shoot in color, it should actually be doing something. And it's incredibly alive. I don't know if that will make sense, that description for folks who aren't looking at it, but it's just bursting at the seams with energy. So many of your pictures. And often, you know, one of the things that I really appreciate is there is something happening in your pictures. I mean, I see a lot of street work where I ask the artist to tell me what they think is happening and important, you know, and happening could be just imparting some feeling or whatever. But I ask them what they think is happening in the picture, and often it's. You know, the answer I get has to do with the aesthetics, the form, and. Which I think is generally, with street photography, not enough. Unless you're going to be a real modernist, Unless you're sort of really, really doubling and tripling down on form. But I feel like with your work, there's almost always something really happening, so it feels very alive. It has a real narrative quality. So I guess I just was wondering, you know, what do you see in your work as far as those qualities go? And what was the evolution like as far as looking at your work and starting to identify not themes, because that's something we talked about that may come later in a more fully developed way, but just in terms of, like, more the type of street photographer you were gonna be. When did you start sort of thinking about refining that and honing in on something?
Well, first of all, we should talk every morning. Thank you. That was wonderful to listen to. So nice to be seen by you. You know, there's a distinct formative, sort of psychological moment where. And it was way back. It was still before I had any concept of something to aspire to or any kind of professional mode. But I was. I was working. You know, I wouldn't have called it working, but I was taking a lot of pictures. I had a camera with me at all times. And I was also in a tough relationship, and I was out. I think we were, like, having a. I met my girlfriend at a park after work, and things were going really good, and that was rare. And she was like, let's go have dinner. I was like, yeah, let's go have dinner. And we get to dinner, and we're halfway through dinner, and I'm like, something is weird. Like, there was a weight on me that's no longer on me. And I realized that I had left my full camera bag in the middle of the park.
Oh, God.
Yeah. At a point when I was also dead broke, and so there was no replacing the camera, the camera obviously was gone. And so for a good long moment, I had nothing to do but go back over the pictures.
Interesting.
I don't remember exactly the genesis. I Guess it was because I started a blog and the blog needed a name. And so I was looking at all this work trying to think of first, what goes in the blog and then second, like, what is it about these pictures that makes them the pictures? And I ended up naming the blog one to say nothing, which was like a fragment from, I think, Oscar Wilde. I should know this. I've told this story so many times. Anyways, it was like my first property and maybe the last actually proper filter on this sort of torrent of what I was producing. And to me it meant like, when does the picture stand alone? When is the picture better without an explanation? When does the picture raise a question? When does the picture, without doing any work at all, feel like pregnant and haunted? And so that was a great formative moment where, you know, by the time I got another camera, I had been really. I'd gotten really deep into editing, which at that point was new because I was taking digital pictures, which for some reason just. I don't know, I just piled them up and don't care to look at them. And around that same time, my sister sent me a little Yashica T4 that she'd found at a thrift store for two bucks with a little note that said for a change of perspective. And it was, I don't know, I had a lot of these great moments where all these sort of, these things, random things kind of coalesced. And that was one of them. I started thinking in terms of like my picture being a picture where, you know, there's no explanation and it raises a question. And, you know, at this point that's gotta be. God, I don't know, like 15 plus years ago. And so, you know, I don't think that I am quite as. I don't think it can be pinned down quite so precisely anymore just because it's been pushed in so many different directions by so many different forces. And in a way those pictures, those sort of like clean but dirty, well composed but chaotic pictures with an implied little storyline, you know, at this point, even when I nail one, it has lost a bit of its luster just because it's become such a. I don't know, it's almost like a meme, like a trope, like an Internet language because it's spread so much. And I guess now I'm more interested in sort of the mistakes that come in searching for that. But I don't want to get way off from answering the question. I think that's the answer. Is that one to say nothing Moment.
Yeah, no, that's really interesting, actually, I'd like you to keep going because that's really fascinating. Can you talk a little bit more about what you were just getting at? That there is a sort of language now that maybe has become more ubiquitous because of Instagram and because everyone has a camera on their phone and how that has affected your work. I'm really fascinated.
Yeah, I don't know. It always feels a little treacherous to navigate because I really do think of it all with utter humility and bordering on self loathing. But I did have an experience where, you know, I have been. I had this explosive moment and it did inspire a lot of variations on my theme. And in the beginning, it was incredible to watch. In the beginning, it didn't. In a way that didn't feel centered around me necessarily, but just that early Instagram where it really got going.
Like, before you became incredibly well known.
Yeah, well, that too, but also before any kind of cynicism set in around it or it got so commercialized, you could just. It was like real time watching a language be born, right? Like the pace of the evolution of phrases and visual tricks. And it was just like, in a way, because I was doing a distinct thing in that moment and it was working, I sort of felt like I was teaching a class. And in that early time, it felt like the only option was totally boundless generosity. Like, I had sort of cracked an early code and was getting calls from people who wanted to pay me to take pictures. And so in that moment, I just wanted to hand out the keys to the kingdom to anybody who wanted them and give away the secrets. And it really felt like this pure Internet. I don't know, what do they call it? Like, the wiki version of life. Like, we were all communicating together. And, you know, at some point I never. It's not a thing that I regret at all, but it's just like that language, that thing that felt so personal and, like, became such wildfire in my hands, eventually got pretty watered down and saturated and felt not like, not mine and not that special anymore. And that ended up being, you know, I guess as it relates to the first part of the conversation, like, it was this great, useful, if not totally comfortable engine to keep pushing me in new directions. Like, this thing that had worked so well for me, I could see in a different context being something that I would just try to repeat forever, over and over again for as long as I possibly could. But because of the nature of the viral Internet, it just. I don't know, it's an interesting experience. I don't want to ramble too much, but like, it's like being in a hall of mirrors at all times.
Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Yeah.
You know, you become so conscious of all your little nuances because you see them repeated elsewhere. And then you also see how people are navigating the same the channel from poking around on Instagram to working for the New York Times or whatever, whatever path it ends up being. There's just so much reflection, there's so many examples to watch in action. And that made me, I guess, really self aware in an uncomfortable way. And it made me feel really embarrassed by any like outright ambition. And I guess slowly but surely, I mean, it definitely took a while, but slowly but surely I just became sort of purity obsessed and spent less and less energy on sharing work and more and more energy making it. And I guess in that regard I think that's been the most kind of profound force of evolution for me in the period that I'm in is like, what can I do in this saturation moment in the world capital of the kind of photography that I'm doing that still feels like mine? And I think that ends up being how I identified that, that kind of long game thing and really started to cultivate, you know, I guess this all came to be through these sort of lucky breaks of non intentional moving through the world. And so then I started to cultivate, you know, I don't know what the word is, but like a non intentionality trying to avoid intention and just lean into process and routine. And like I was saying before, just like, see what piles up, you know, I don't, in a way I really, I wonder how much of this I end up regretting down the road. Because in a way it's like an anti quality approach.
Explain. What does that mean?
It means that I don't find it useful or productive to be hyper aware of the work that's being made by my contemporaries and then going out and trying to top my best work or to work in a way where I'm seeking something in particular to chase some kind of achievement.
That sounds helpful to me.
Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's like I feel like I've quarantined myself psychologically. I also do a job where I have a lot of time to walk around and think. And so I've told myself these things over and over again thousands of times. But like, I don't know that the thing that emerges from all that chewing of fat is like, is What I was saying before, like, what can I reveal about myself versus what can I chase and try to achieve? And in that regard, the commercial thing is a great gift because it's, it pays my bills. It also, it's like I've said it before, sloppily, but it's like there's this big billboard avatar of me that is known and that is as far as people know, is toiling away making the same pictures they love, blah, blah, blah, working my brand. And really it functions as this great thing to hide behind where I can, you know, I can enjoy the sort of practical spoils of so called success and still be nervous little mad scientist, tinkering, mistake making, bumbling me in the shadows behind it. And you know, to the point now where I don't feel like I even really need to contribute that much to the story of ArnoldDaniel, which is great for me because I've become, well, on the one hand super burnt out. Like I take so many pictures every day. At some point you gotta click in, be like, what is the point? I don't care about these pictures, like day to day, I don't care about these pictures. I usually think they're bad, but I don't know, having that broader vision that isn't even about pictures. Like in a way I don't even feel like a photographer. It happens to be that that's how I collect the things that I'm piling up. But you know, I guess I'm just trying to make room for, and cultivate this sort of outsider perspective. And you know, I, I naturally feel like a fringe person. I can, you know, I can hold my own in a room, I'm fine. But like, I have always felt like an outsider who's, I don't know, fooling them, not an imposter way in like an identity way. I don't know, now I'm in the weeds. You gotta save me.
No, no, I'm fascinated by what you're saying and I actually, I think everything I want to say actually, but I think everything you're saying makes so much sense and I think in a lot of ways it's incredibly sensible. I mean, for all the anxiety and whatnot, there is a real method to this, you know, there's, it's like, you know, you sort of just letting it go in order to see what comes, but in a, in a real long game way. And I really personally appreciate that. I mean, I, you know, I'm constantly talking to artists about what they perceive as something taking a Long time. And what really is a long time and often, especially with young artists, those two things are not connected and how long it can. You know, I cook. There's always exceptions where people shoot an amazing body of work in two months or two weeks or whatever. But for the most part, you know, most of the really iconic work, and I say iconic to mean work that has, you know, really stood the test of time, that's, that's, you know, tainted by nostalgia or overshadowed by nostalgia, but really holds up is very often work that was made over a long period of time where the artist does allow, as you are, for their own discovery of their intent and motivation, you know, to be revealed to them way down the line with some real hindsight. And I think it's really fascinating. And you know, one thing that I was thinking as, as you were talking about sort of the way you feel in the industry community, whatnot, is when I was on your website, your website makes me feel a little bit like you're trolling us.
Like definitely, definitely trolling.
So I know you a little bit and I know a lot about you. I mean, I'm very fond of you. Anyone who meets you will understand that it's impossible not to be unless you yourself or the person meeting you is a sociopath.
But put that on a T shirt.
But you know, I know a lot more about you from getting ready to talk to you today. And so I was spending some time on your website and I was just absolutely cracking up because I know you to be a very thoughtful person. And yet here are your categories. Women, men, children, pets. I mean, it's with a couple others that. But those are your bolded. So, you know, I think that your website sort of connects to what you're saying. It's a sort of gentle and humorous fuck off.
Yeah, well, and that website is actually, it feels like museum to that early discovery moment because I basically haven't touched it in 10 years.
Yes, clear.
I have another fuck off website that's just a blank page with a search bar. For whatever reason, I'm not like a combative, bitter, angry guy whatsoever. But it has always felt like fuck you is an essential piece of my puzzle. There always needs to be a little bit of that. I don't know, it's just like the whole business of it. I think it needs a little bit of the air taken out of it. It's too serious, it's too proud of itself and I just can't hang with that.
Yeah, I understand. So thankfully some people have been able to Push you towards recognizing the real way in which your work is work that people will really experience in a very moving way, if quietly sitting down with it. And I'm talking about books. You've published a couple of books, and you have a book coming out with goose joints this fall. And can you tell us a bit about that before we have to wrap up? Because that's super exciting to me. I don't know about you, but it's very exciting today, right? Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. It's very. I mean, like, to be totally transparent, the process, like many things, where I am handing any kind of control over my precious little baby over to anybody else to some degree, always makes me hostile and paranoid, you know, which of course, I express in a very lovely way. But I'm in the process now of really wrestling. I think that. I mean, the edit is locked. I'm going. Getting on an airplane to go beyond press and watch it roll out of the machine. It's been very interesting. You know, there's part of me, every time I go through the book process where I'm angry at myself. I'm like, you must do this yourself next time. Because as a writer and as a photographer, it's always been a challenge for me to submit myself to the process of being edited.
Yeah.
And it's. It's a. It goes both ways. Because on one hand, it is a job that I find completely impossible. Like, I. Not only do I have, you know, more pictures than anybody needs to see or do anything with, but, you know, I also. I don't know, I have emotional attachments to them. It's very hard to see straight.
Of course. Of course. Yeah.
And to make any kind of statement when I have, you know, an intimate relationship with hundreds of thousands of little moments, I find it impossible. So I'm always sort of grateful and flattered by the pitch.
Yeah.
And to some degree, it's all. It's. I've said it a lot. It's like. It's like a dream spa treatment to have somebody go through the accumulations of your life and tell you who you are. I think they're usually wrong, but it's still. It's a very fun process. And so the way it's gone with loose joints was I made them an edit of, I guess, like 3.3000ish photos. Just to. In my mind, I was. It was like a crash course. It was like informal education on just the spectrum of what was available. You know, I tried to give a juicy piece of every different kind of thing that I do. And, you know, maybe that's inscrutable because it all kind of looks the same because I only know how to do what I know how to do. But from there, Sarah was the main editing force.
Yep.
She took it in a direction where I think she felt like she was showing she was, like, revealing a more sentimental, romantic side of my perspective, which is definitely heavily there. Obviously, this process comes with a lot of reflection, and a part of it has been like, I look through my own edits of my work, and there is a certain queasiness that I miss in the lovely edit. But definitely there are representatives of all tones of my voice. And it's like, I don't know, it's just a lovely experience to have somebody spend that much time trying to make sense of you.
Of course. Absolutely.
And so that ends up being, I think, what the book is, at least from my perspective. Partly it's, you know, I feel like you gotta check in once in a while, show your work. So there's that aspect to it. There's the fact that in my giant pile of books, there's plenty of loose joints represented, and they've worked with a lot of my friends, a lot of people who I really admire. And so, you know, I was excited and honored to get the treatment from them. And, you know, the last book I put out, Pickpocket, was such a particular thing. It was so much like, in a way, everything ends up being about collaboration. But Pickpocket was like, it was 2020. There was no way I was gonna sit inside. And I had just, like a miracle dream team of people who were so committed to making something out of my work. They were having weekly international zoom meetings that I wasn't a part of. Really top shelf people who I admire while I walked around and took pictures of the city in its crazy state. And so that book, I think what they did was they took my work, and as movie makers, they were like, how do we tell the story of this person through his work? And they made this very chaotic, super designed, sexy book that I couldn't possibly have made on my own. The Loose Joints book isn't like that. It's traditional. It's clean and within my grasp. But Pickpocket was psychotic.
Yeah, the design of Pickpocket is very intense.
Yeah, it's overwhelming, and I love it as an artifact of the collaboration and as an artifact of, like, what happens when I let go and trust the people around me to make their own thing out of my, you know, little language. So the loose Joints. One is in a way a response to that. Like to go more formal and traditional. You know, there are, there are. There's communication between the books. I mean, I don't want to reel too much too early on, but like it opens with a picture of a pickpocket. And you know, I think that the sort of organizing logic of the book is much more aesthetic than it is like puzzle minded or intellectual. And so it's nice. I'm honored to, I don't know, to be presented that way.
Well, we'll give a plug to the book to remind people when it comes out. And I'm super excited myself to have a copy of that. Daniel, I think we gotta wrap up, but thank you so much for hanging out with me this morning and. Yeah, I just. I love talking with you and say hi to Kay for me and.
You got it. Yeah, it's a total pleasure. I could talk to you all day.
Yeah, likewise.
I hope we get a chance soon.
Yeah, absolutely. A good hot sticky lunch, maybe in the city soon.
You got it. Anytime.
All right, Sounds good. All right. Be well, my friend.
Okay, you too. Thanks, Sasha.
Okay, bye. Thank you.
Bye.
Photo Work with Sasha Wolff is a production of the Photo Work Foundation. Executive producer is Sasha Wolff and the associate producer is Taylor Selsbach. The show is also produced and edited by me, Michael Chovendalt. In a real photo show. Music is by J. Walter Hawks. If you like the show and wish to find out more more about the foundation, please visit PhotoArch foundation and be sure to subscribe and review with all the stars on your listening platform.