Foreign.
Hello and welcome to the Hillbrook School Podcast. My name is Bill Selleck. He him and I'm here again with Jay. How are you, Jay?
Hello. Hey. Good to see you. Or, well, not see you. Good to be with you. I'm Jay Van Buren and I'm the co founder of Membit, the augmented reality app.
Yeah. And you're on the Hillbrook podcast because you're also the director of our hub through the end of the school year, and we are so lucky to have you. So, because you know so, so much about Membit and AR augmented reality, I thought we start off with a little story from me and then I'd love for you to kind of fill in some of the details and explain why this idea is so rad. So I was on a call yesterday with a couple folks from Apple Distinguished Schools from Apple Education. And so our school has been in Apple Distinguished Schools since I believe, 2010. Someone might need to fact check me on that. It's at least 2010. And part of is being able to connect with schools from around the state, the country, and, you know, kind of theoretically the world. Right. And be able to share how we leverage Apple hardware and software in meaningful ways to further student engagement and just make school like an awesome place to be. Right. All that sounds great. And so I was on a call yesterday, and we have a tour coming in from Taiwan. The Ministry of Education in Taiwan wants to come check out our school. So they're going to hit a couple different places. Apple Park, Hillbrook School, couple other schools, and then head back and hopefully take those lessons learned to help them kind of shape what education looks like in their country. So this is incredible. But as you might guess, Jay, this is a pretty tightly structured visit. And so they're going to be coming during one of four days that we are testing. We have our standardized testing that we do do. It doesn't drive everything. Like, the last couple schools I was at, it was like the whole year was like, leading up to, like, standardized testing. Like, that is not what we do at Hillbrook. Right. It's one of many ways that we measure student progress and can report to families, which is great and which is important, but it's also not the kind of thing that you can interrupt with for a tour. Right, right. So like, so they have to come on this day. Like, we have testing on this day. Like this. We're just like, all right, so I don't, like, I don't know. And. And then I was like, wait a minute, you know, like, I can Definitely talk with them. We can be up in the Oak Room, in our meeting room and talk and, and all of that. But what actually be great is if they could kind of experience student learning in spaces. Because that's what's so special about Hillbrook is like the spaces are so kind of thoughtfully made. And whether it's downtown San Jose, where it's the city as a classroom, or whether it's the JK8 campus in Los Gatos that has 18 acres and just, you know, there's literally a creek that goes through campus. It's gorgeous. Like the place and the environment shapes the learning so much. Right. There's a whole, I feel the study around place based learning. And so like, how do we show off student projects besides just pointing at a wall and being like, there's a project or like, here's a screen and here's slideshows. Like, why come to Hillbrook? Just so they'll look like a TV screen with slides. And so I'm gonna give you one guess for 10 points. What did, what do I suggest we do, Jay?
Augmented reality.
Yeah. And so why like walk people through? Because some people are like, well, obviously that's where you're going. Others are like, wait, what? Like, how does this take advantage of place?
Totally. Okay, so one of the things that makes augmented reality special and makes it a really profoundly different kind of medium than other kinds of communication mediums is the way that the digital can be in relationship to the real. And the simplest example of that is you're seeing a photograph appearing in the place where that photograph was taken. So you could be in an empty classroom, looking at a photograph of a kid in that classroom building something, working on a project, doing something, and you're seeing it right there in that very spot where it actually happened. And that's what I really built membit for was the idea of being able to have augmented reality images, 3D objects, etc. That is in meaningful relationship to the real world. Because the thing is, if you're just gonna look at a picture or if it's something that has nothing to do with a place where it is, why are you even looking at it in augmented reality? Like, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really. It's like, you know, it's like just, yeah, just like look at a video of it or whatever. It's like if it has no. If its context is completely unimportant, then it really has no business being an augmented reality. And the thing that really changes when the context of the digital image, the digital object, whatever, is the real world. Its context is its place in the real world. Suddenly, it connects to all of the things that we care about. It's like, this is one of the reasons that I'm much more on the augmented reality side versus the virtual reality side, because I just think that, you know, the real world is where we all. It's where we live. It's where everybody we love lives. You know, it's like where we spend our actual lives. And so it's therefore deeply meaningful to us. And being. Having a digital object or digital image or whatever that's in the real world gives it a chance to have all this connection to the real world and to real meaning and to be something that we really care about.
I love that. And so I'm thinking, like, I think my favorite example so far is the Selfinder, the selfie cylinder that the students have made. And I guess theoretically, that could live kind of anywhere. But what I think is so beautiful about doing this in augmented reality is two big things. The first part is these students built and designed these in the Hub, and so you're able to experience them in that place. Right. And then the other part is just like, the feature of it that isn't necessarily connected to Hillbrook, the location, and that's the ability to actually step into the cylinder. And, like, how big is this? Like maybe 15ft wide. Is that how much we can imagine it?
I mean.
Yeah.
And I. And the thing is, I mean, the kids actually get to scale it how they want to so they can decide and they can actually put it. Some of them did put them at the Hub, but I asked, I encouraged them to go and put them in the place that they like most on campus. Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Yeah. So you could do a little Self under tour with the. With the VIPs if you wanted to, and take the kids to a couple of different Self unders. And each one. And I. And I gotta give credit where credit is due. It was Samuel who was in my class who gave it the name Self under. I said, hey, kids, we're making a cylinder about yourself. And he was like, boom. Self ver so. And I was like, so it shall be. That is what these things will be called forever and ever, you know, but basically, they have a door and you. I encourage them to make them big enough that the door was taller than an adult. And that's because I wanted the adults who are going to visit these things to have that experience of going through the door and coming into this space, and that's because it changes you. You know, it's like there's a reason why architecture, especially sacred architecture, has lots of examples of these kind of liminal spaces, right? There's like, archways, there's doorways, there's things that you come into a new space and it changes the way your body feels when you do that. You move from one space into another, and you experience it differently. And in these cases, it's a experience. You're coming into the Selvadora now. You're in the space of this kid, and the kid has created this space for you, and you're seeing all the images all around you that they put there and the 3D objects that they put there and the songs that they put there. You're hearing the songs, and that makes it special. It makes it. You have this little special experience being in there and seeing this and kind of communing with what this kid has decided to share with you about themselves. And so, you know, that. That. And that's part of what, you know, we all talked about with this. What I talked about with the students was like, you know, okay, you know, think about this. Like, what do you want people to experience when you're putting the objects inside? You know, where are you putting them? What do you want people to see? First, second, third? You know, you can put something so that it's just inside the door, so that you can actually see it from outside the door. So it's like little hint of what you're going to see, you know, or you can put it so it's completely not visible until you walk in the door. And then basically it's like a little surprise that you didn't know was going to be there. So all those kinds of things we talked about when they were doing it. And that's why I call it immersive design. Right? It's immersive experience design. And I think it's very good for kids to think like that, to imagine someone else's experience of the thing that they're making and to consciously try to make it the experience, make the. Create the experience that you want that person to have.
Well, sure. I mean, that's. That's like the definition of empathy, right? But then also, the. The thing that just strikes me at is this is such an interesting way to have discussions around media literacy, because ultimately, as you're creating content, you want others to think or feel something. And what you're talking about is all of these feelings that they are trying to evoke in Their audience, in their viewers. And so as they're creating this media, it's like, what do you hope others feel? And that's really, that's persuasion through media. And that's, that's such a beautiful, powerful thing. And it's so, it's so interesting because it's creating it on a device, but then it's in a physical space also, right?
And it really feels like it's in the space. That's the thing that happens when I, you know, I see people doing this all the time. They have their phone out, they're looking at something through their phone, they're walking around in it. And for them, as they're experiencing it, the phone disappears because they're just seeing the stuff. And the fact that they're only seeing this little piece of it, this little rectangular piece of whatever they're seeing at.
The moment, AKA phone, the phone, right.
They forget about that. They forget that that's all they're seeing. And they're just in the space with the stuff that they're seeing. And that's partially a function of just the way our visual perception system works. You know, when, when, you know, when you're in a space, you, your, your eyes are unconsciously, you know, kind of darting all around all the time. If you ever like watch, watch your, watch yourself watching the world, you know, kind of, you see that your eyes are flitting around different locations. And part of what's happening is that you are constantly building and rebuilding and revising a three dimensional model of the space that you're in that is in your head. That we are all doing that all day long. We are constantly creating a 3D model of space in our head. And when you have something in augmented reality, that augmented reality thing, if I put a elephant in this room that I'm sitting in, it just goes right in. It just goes right into that model that's just, that's now part of the space. And so it basically, it is a digitally mediated experience, but it feels like it's in the real world.
I love that so much. It's also such like a fun way to play. And I know it feels like a little bit kind of basic to say it, but it's also like a really profound thing to be like there's this thing you're creating on a screen digitally, but then you're creating it for a physical space. And the way you're describing it is such like a thoughtful way that it moves beyond. Like the tough part for me, if we think like at the end of the year Hillbrook Art show has always been, you know, here's all these amazing physical artifacts, these 3D things that we've done, and then here's like a slideshow on a laptop. And that's always felt both kind of presentation wise and also physically a little flat. The dad joke. And this kind of solves that problem. This actually becomes a way to immerse yourself in it. But it's still letting students develop that expertise and storytelling in the digital tools. And I feel like so much of when I can't begin to imagine what the world's gonna look like in 20 years when they're adults, let alone in five years. But I do know that digital tools and being able to communicate and evoke emotions and thoughts through media is going to continue to be an important and at some point a critical skill. And I think this is such, like an elegant way of walking them through that approach. It's so exciting.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, honestly, in the world that we're headed into with, with AI, I think AI is going to upend every industry. You know, creativity, creativity and communication, those are essential. Those are going to be essential for, I think, for everybody. You know, I think no matter what kind of job you have, the jobs that don't involve any creativity or any communication. Yeah. I mean, those are the ones that robots are going to do, right? Like, yeah, I think, I think that all the kind of normal, stable things are not going to be stable. And it's going to be the people who can think creatively and communicate effectively and have flexible minds. That's. That's what, that's, that's the only thing, that's the only job security. I mean, that's what I. With my own sons, I'm encouraging them to just double down on being creative and being, you know, being able to think outside the box. That's your ticket to relevancy in a future where robots can do anything that is rote and.
Well, sure. And kind of to that end. Right. We have, particularly with generative AI, depending on when you're all listening to this. ChatGPT just announced images with ChatGPT and so it's been able to do images, but it's the. Is that what it's called? Is it Images with Chat GPT? It has a very specific name.
I missed it. I'm not sure but it.
So it's the new 40 image generator. Unless you're listening to this years later, in which your case, this is very boring for you.
Very, very old as of kind of.
End of March, it can now actually get text correct. It can spell correctly. It can create diagrams. And what's interesting now is it can take images. You share. You upload an image and say, give this to me in the style of. And it will create it. And so I added Mike Peller running down the hallway in our upper school, and he was wearing, like, one of those cool hats and had his, you know, jacket on with the little elbow pads, and he kind of leapt in the air, and I caught a photo of it that's just a ridiculous photo. So I upload it, and then, of course, I say, in the style of Studio Ghibli. And it just nailed it. Looked exactly like that style. And so I can't imagine we're taking a work. We're not going to take away work from that studio. Right. I'm not going to be like, hey, like, draw a picture for me of Mike Peller jumping in our hallway, but just a playful way, and that image would not have existed had I not had that idea. Right. So it's up to us and our creativity to be like, you know, either things that are incredibly meaningful or things that are just super silly. Like Mike jumping in the hallway of our high school.
That's right. And it's going to become. The other things about it will be the things that we pay attention to. I think that whatever part of it is unique to a particular human being or whatever part of it is unique to a human voice, to a human spirit, are going to be the parts that we pay attention to and the parts that the machine can do. We just figured out whatever. We don't. We don't really pay attention to, that we don't care. Because ultimately, we don't really care what a machine has to say to us. What we care about is what another human has to say. And so in the same way that, you know, one. One way of looking at modernist painting is that every modernist movement, you know, you know, whether it's Impressionism, Cubism, you know, you name it, is another answer to the question, what else can painting do? Because basically, you know, when. I mean, there's. There's no coincidence that photography developed as a. As an art form at the same time that painting, modernism, you know, came into painting. Because basically, you know, before. Before the photograph, if you wanted to picture something, you hired a painter, you know. Oh, interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
Now you got a machine that can take a pic, make a picture of things. Okay, yeah. Well, what else. What else does painting do? What else? Can painting do? And there's all these different answers, right? Painting can express your feelings. Painting can say something about the, you know, material qualities of the cosmos, you know, whatever. All these other different. All those different answers. That's what that is. And I think that the same thing is going to happen now with this new technological leap where we have generative imagery. So then the question becomes, you know, what. What piece of that process is the crucial piece that we. Where we find a connection with another human being? And that's what people are gonna really love and pay attention to.
Nice. Amazing. Well, Jay, we're gonna keep talking about this. We're gonna keep talking about art and space, media literacy, how students can engage with it in interesting, meaningful ways. Definitely gonna continue talking about AR and how Membit can help us leverage all of it. Thanks for hopping on the podcast.
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Yeah. And thank you all for listening.
Rock and roll.