All right, let's do this, peanut, if you're staying in the room, no talking. Hello and welcome to the Photo Work Podcast, the talky and touchy feely version of my book, 40 photographers on process and Practice. Hello, everyone. I'm Sascha Wolff, recording from Woodstock, New York, and joined, as usual by. By my good friend and producer, Mr. Michael Chovindalton. Hello, Michael.
Hello. I'm hiding out in my office, hoping no one knocks on the door.
Okay. All right, we'll be quick. How are you?
Oh, doing all right, I think, you know, I think I'm all healthy and just, you know, trying to avoid the coughing students when they come up to my desk.
Yeah, that's when you step back, even if it means, like, you know, hanging out on the window ledge or something.
Start spraying lice all around the room.
Right, exactly. You say, take no offense, but. And then start praying like mad.
I keep a giant bottle of hand sanitizer on my desk. Yeah.
No.
How about you?
Everyone's going down. I'm fine. I finally feel totally normal again. And which is good because super, super busy time of year for me between the foundation, you, Sasha Wallace.
So busy.
I don't even know where you are half the time.
I don't either, to be honest. I really don't. Just bouncing back and forth between the city a lot and up here, just getting ready for an exhibition that Raheem and I are doing over at Howard Greenberg Gallery next month.
Wow.
And Sasha Wolff projects is going to be back at apad, the New York photo show in April. And that's a big lift and a bunch of other things. And then, as usual, trying to raise money like crazy for the foundation. Oh, and let me just say that applications are open now for the senior fellowship. So go to Photowork foundation, click on Senior Fellowship, read the criteria, see if you fit the criteria, and if you do, please apply.
Absolutely.
Really exciting opportunity. So.
Yeah.
But all is. All is well. And I loved today's guest was a returning guest, Chris McCall. And I love talking to Chris. This is a longer episode because Chris and I just get into it, but it really wonderful. And I think there's a lot of really useful information and not surprisingly in this episode. But. Yeah. What did you think?
Well, first of all, it is a lovely tribute to the closing of Pier 24 to the Polara foundation, to just the incredible amount of thought and work that went into their shows. It was a unique space. We may never see it again. Something like that. But just a beautiful tribute. And on the Flip side of the closing of something. It feels like Chris is just ready for the next thing because he's so enthusiastic and energetic. And I call this an uplifting episode because the way he talks about going out into the world and wanting to learn more and see what's out there and think about the next thing. And you two have a really fantastic conversation about how people can show work, present work in these sort of pop up ideas and really take ownership of your own work in some ways to get it out there and get that network going, get that community going.
Really fantastic, that conversation. Thank you. That conversation is towards the end of the episode. And please. I mean, I think everyone listens to the whole episode, but I once joked.
That please listen to the end.
Yeah, make it to the end. But you know, I just want us to sort of reinforce that. You know, I can imagine that to artists who are struggling because there's not very many venues and opportunities that that conversation may seem, I don't know, not pie in the sky, but something along those lines and almost like too optimistic. Right. But I don't believe that I.
No, I don't either.
I really believe in this idea of forging your own path, doing what you have to do and you know, takes some ingenuity and it certainly takes some nerve and it, it takes some friend support. Yeah. And maybe even some sort of, you know, part of your brain that you're not as comfortable using that sort of organizational, administrative almost side. But that's like the two of you.
To talk about the sort of the artist and the business side and how they. It's not always a mesh.
No. But you know what it's like. When I opened the gallery, you know, I had never had a full time job in my life. You know, I came from production, film and television production. You know, I could go down a list of all the things that I had to learn and do that I wasn't accustomed to. And you just do it. Not every job is, you know, all exciting in every aspect. There's always going to be some drudgery involved. And I think, you know, this type of idea of finding a space, you know, hey kids, let's put on a show type deal. Is really worth it. And anyway, look, I mean, we're sort of now you and I are doing an episode, having that conversation.
Yeah. Well, pay it for those listening to the show, pay attention to that. Also that you mentioned the idea of the nonprofit, which I think and the pop up show, it helps lower the stakes and.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's A nice way to sort of ease into it.
Yeah, for sure. Well, let's get to it. As we said, a really lovely episode I hope people enjoy. And many, many thanks to Chris for his usual just generosity of spirit and for all his years. Pier 24. Yeah, absolutely. We love you, Chris. And Michael, if you don't mind, please take it away.
My pleasure. And here is your conversation with Chris McC.
Chris McCall, welcome back to the Photo Work podcast. It's great to have you back on. There were so many things we didn't get to the last time you were on, and I know that people really loved that episode. And you have so much knowledge about world of fine art photography, and I think it's really super helpful to people to hear from, you know, when we bring on folks like you, curators, people who run spaces and make books and all of that. So thank you for coming back on during what is a very busy time for you.
Yeah, thank you for having me back on. The feedback from the first time was pretty touching, and a lot of people have reached out or talked to me in person about listening to the podcast and in some cases several times to kind of get everything out of it that they could. So that's been really nice response to hear.
So you have been, for the past 15 years, the director of Pier 24, one of the premier photography exhibition spaces in the world. And Pier 24 closed down. Extraordinary exhibition that you had last weekend, and it was the closing of the whole space. So the end of an era. So what's that been like? Why did the pier close? Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that decision and how it feels for you to be starting a new chapter.
Yeah. The first part of why did it close? Is a complicated one, so I'll give the Cliff Notes version of it. But basically, construction here had gone on a lot longer than expected, as you can imagine. When you start to disassemble parts of a pier that's been around for, you know, close to 100 years, you find rot and other issues with the building, structural issues. So the cost of kind of renovating the space continued to climb. And throughout all of that, there was essentially a handshake agreement with the Port of San Francisco that we would continue under the same terms that we had for the original lease of 10 years. And without getting too much into it, because I've, I guess, come to peace with the process and where we're at now. We're in a very long negotiation, almost five years with the port. And ultimately what happened was a Raising of our rent, a tripling of our rent, and, you know, put the Polaris in a position where they had to decide would that kind of financial commitment best suit this community or would other places benefit from that support? And I think part of it is, you know, they ran a free Museum for 15 years. At the end of this, we've given gifts to over 25 institutions across this country which were substantial. You know, in many cases, the largest photo gifts they've ever received. And this is up and down the east coast, the west coast, the middle of America, university museums. And they're both in, I'll just say, their 80s to keep their age to themselves. So they were just looking at what's for them, the kind of next. And the interesting part for me, working with someone in their 80s is, you know, the realization that what is going to be their final phase of kind of philanthropy for them. So they decided to move in a direction where they would focus on healthcare, education and the arts. The arts component really has been, you know, dismantling the collection and giving it to museums all over the country. So. So, you know, more eyes will get onto it. So was it just the port? You know, sometimes life presents you opportunities where it makes you reflect and, you know, your path turns in a different direction. I think that's what it was. That struggle and that kind of rent raise after doing this, what I think is unbelievably generous thing on the waterfront here in San Francisco. I just think gave them a different lens to look through to reevaluate what they were doing for their community.
Yep. No, that makes perfect sense. I think, you know, we're all so grateful to them, to the Pullara family, and to you and Ali and the rest of the staff there for doing such incredible work. So how are you feeling? It's been a week. Not even a week.
Yeah, it's coming up. Today is a week, the. I guess the week anniversary of closing the Space Forever. There's a couple things. One is things got crazy towards the end, just with the public desire to come in. As you can imagine that, of course, that happens for every show. It's on steroids when it's the final show and the place is closed. I mean, people. We are getting calls from around the United States and around the world where people are saying, we're going to come, but we can't get an appointment. We tried to accommodate everybody we could. There were a lot of school groups. But starting in January, it was kind of. Each week got a little more intense and more People coming into the space where my staff was doing everything they could without being emotionally and physically overwhelmed. And personally, you know, and I've said this, we've talked. You know, I've talked with photographers. I felt like I was in a place where I was kind of ready to shut things down and move on. But the final two weeks, like, kind of hit me. And then basically the final day. I mean, I. When I showered that morning, I felt like I was going to fifth grade. On the first day of school, I had this, like, these weird nerves. Several photographers called me through the day thanking me, and, you know, somewhere, we were the first people to show them. And it was more emotional than I expected to the point where I just kind of disappeared at the end of the day, emotionally, I was drained. You know, this has been. Yeah, essentially the largest chunk of my adult life has been here. You know, in July, it'll be 16 years for me. I put my heart and soul in this. I think last time I was on the podcast, I said, you know, my staff, Mari, Morgan, Ry, Ali, even our building guy, Tito, they're family to me. I see them every morning. I know about their families. I know what's going on in their lives. So that realization. We still have four or five months to kind of dismantle the building, help the Polaris move into a new space. But it was emotional for me. And, you know, as we do, I did a kind of final post on Instagram, and I was not prepared for kind of the emotional outpouring of the community, from great curators, photographers, to just the general public about what this space has meant to them and what we've done for the medium, which I think I talk to Andy a lot about sports, and you walk a line where you want to be confident. We want to be the best, but we also want to be humble. So we had, you know, you have a feeling that we're doing important things and, you know, having an impact on the medium, but you never really know. And we don't put ourselves out there to get praise or those kind of things. But when. When something like this happens, it was pretty amazing to see that response, and very touching. And just, you know, I'm still trying to unpack it and reflect on it because, like I said, even though we feel like we're doing great things, the response, I just didn't imagine kind of some of the words people were using and what they were saying. So I'm in a good place. I think we're all in a good place. It helps to Go right into having to take over 700 photographs on the wall and ship them back to, like, four countries and make sure they're packed right. And the guys that are in here right now doing that work, it keeps you busy. But there's definitely going to be a time for me to sit back and reflect on this experience and figure out what parts of it I want to take with me moving forward.
Well, I saw a lot of those comments on Instagram, and it was incredibly powerful and moving. I mean, as someone who considers you a friend and loves you and cares about you and Allie. You know, just reading those comments myself, sitting here on my couch in Woodstock was overwhelming. So I can't even imagine how that must have felt. Look, I mean, it's a wonderful thing, and I think it says, sort of reinforces what I know about our community, which is that it's. It's a very connected and supportive community. And, I mean, the day when I was out there a number of weeks ago to see you and the final exhibition, I mean, I bumped into Janet Delaney was there and Carolyn Drake and Melissa Catanese and Ed Pinar and Donovan Smallwood. I mean, yeah, it's a real testament to what you've done that people were just buying plane tickets and flying in from all over to see the exhibition and really, I think, pay their respects. I mean, to me, that's what it was about. So that's very touching. So what are you gonna do now? What's, you know, when you've wrapped everything up in a few months or four or five months, what's next?
Well, some time off for sure, but it's some time off to rest, to start and do some things that I've wanted to personally do, and then, you know, some strategic traveling that's both, you know, leisure and about photography. But a lot of people suggest things about what I should do next. You know, start a magazine, start a educational program.
They want you to lose money.
Yeah, no, I think a lot of them do. And a lot of this is coming from artists who, as we know, think with one side of their brain, which is great. That's why they're so good at what they do. But the other side of their brain, which is the kind of finance, numbers, practicality side, they don't think. And that's what you have to do as an artist. I taught a class, and I'll come back to what I'm gonna do next, but I taught a class when I was in high school. They were kind enough to go, like, I need more Income and more classes. So they let me teach a section of freshman art. And, you know, the painting, drawing and sculpture teachers started out with figure drawing, and I had never done any of that. So I taught them how to trace and use projections. And I think the other teachers thought it was cheating. The kids loved it because they actually produced works they were proud of. But in that, I would always use people like Koons and probably now, you know, more contemporary even so would be Hank Willis Thomas. And it was always like, how do you get to the point where you're like, I'm gonna make a sculpture of a balloon animal that's like one story high and massive, and how do you dare to dream that big? And I think that's what a lot of artists have, where it's like they're ready to dive headfirst into a photo magazine or an educational program, and they're not even thinking, like, well, universities have certain certifications and people give money because of, like, business plans and histories and those things, and they're just, like, ready to dive into that. So will I be doing either of those things? Likely not. But what I do plan to do is, you know, I have not. And I would have to go back and look, but I don't think I've traveled outside the United States for over eight years. And part of that was at the start of the pier. I was getting invited to a lot of things, so I'd be invited to unseen speak and different photo kind of events. And, you know, I just couldn't do it. It just took so much of my time. I realized, like, to produce a 17 gallery show every year, my focus had to be on just the pier. And if it wasn't, then our shows would start to slip. And, you know, I always looked at it as the Polaris had me here to put up the best exhibitions possible. Our exhibitions was our mission. It wasn't our publication program. It wasn't an education program. It was really about putting pictures on the walls and engaging our community in that way. So I didn't travel. So I am going to travel. You know, I have plans to go to Japan, China, probably Brazil, back to Europe, where, you know, I spent a lot of time in the Netherlands in my early years at the pier, which had a massive impact on me. And I'm going to do several things. I'm going to meet with. I'm going to relax and just see things. But as I always do, because it's my passion, I will go to museums, I hope to meet with curators. I Hope to meet with gallerists and with artists and ask them, you know, curators, what are you collecting? What's the mission? What's the 10 year plan for your institution? Are there specific areas or artists you're focused on? Gallerists get a sense of how they're seeing the market, how they're seeing supporting artists and what the new role of galleries are in this kind of new photo world. And then artists, same thing, just what I've always done. Understand their practice, get to know them as people and talk to them about how they're feeling about the art world, the photo world and what's moving forward. And then within that, I hope to, you know, get a great survey of what's happening globally with fine art photography. And is there a gap, a niche, something where I can see myself fitting in or doing something with the medium? I don't know that I will go back to a traditional institution. My greatest joy within photography is working directly with artists on projects, whether that's a book, a show, you know, the very early stages of work and just looking at pictures and kind of going through it with them. So I, you know, me too. It's going to be 12 years to 12 years. I wish 12 months to 18 months probably that I will take some time off and try to have that understanding of where the medium. Plus, you know, I have not been to Pittsburgh to visit Ed and Melissa in a while. I want to go to Baltimore and visit Curran Hadelberg, who I will say called me a few days ago. And speaking of community, I thought it was returning his work. It was literally just to check in on how I was feeling and the closing of the pier and just kind of being a supportive friend and thanking me for him being in the final show. And I think that what you spoke to earlier, that is what we have. Brian Scoopmont was out here, you know, two weekends before the pier closed. And as you mentioned, Donovan Smallwood threw Greg Harris and Aaron Hoyt. And it was just, it was just unbelievable. The amount of people who came through and the support that myself and the staff felt was really touching. But, you know, we all feel like it's on to new things and I think we're all excited. You know, these are weird parts in your life when there's an unknown. And the art world is a brutal place for artists, but it's also a brutal place at times for other professionals, whether it's admin, curatorial, whatever it is. These are not a place like Goldman Sachs, where if you're an investment advisor, Or a hedge fund guy, you just go over to another firm and you've done well. So they have you great jobs don't open up frequently. So I think, I think some of my staff, there's a little uneasiness with it. But what I've learned over my life is you kind of embrace that change is good. It can be scary at times, but it's interesting. You learn the most about yourself during those kind of shifts and turns.
Well, I'll be really curious to talk to you after. I mean, I'm sure I'll be talking to you while it's going on, but this idea of sort of surveying the landscape of this world we're in and getting a sense of where it's at, be really, really interested in talking about that. I mean, I'm always in that because I make a living selling work. I'm sort of always having to be in that head space of trying to figure it out. And it can be quite perplexing. So let's talk a little bit about some of the artists who have been on your radar, people who've made a real big impact on you that you'd like other folks to be more aware of. So not the sort of top 20 of our most famous photographers, but some of the other folks who've really come along and had a big impact on you and you want to sort of share with other people.
Right. Well, this starts easy for me and this is a bigger name, but I think it's someone who should be kind of higher regarded than they are. And that's Henry Wessel, who I refer to as Hank. I really believe Hank is the photographer of his generation. And there's no disrespect in that to Lee Friedlander or Garry Winogrand. I just think his approach to thinking about the medium was deeper and editing, which I think is the secret sauce of lyrical documentary. And you know, full disclosure, I run Hank's archive. He was a. He became a close friend after I moved out to San Francisco and every opportunity I could get to go to his studio and learn from him, I did. So, you know, he had a mid career retrospective at SFMOMA. I think it was in the early 2000s. I'd love to see his pictures spread a little further than that. And then another photographer that I love spending time with is. And I touched a little bit about this on your last podcast is Paul Graham. Paul has been prolific. He's made so many great bodies of work. I really believe Shimmer of possibility changed the way we think about putting pictures onto the wall. And he's also just a deep thinker about the medium and the concepts within the medium and kind of, I think when an artist is engaged in helping people understand their craft and what they do and unpacking that, it's helpful to me. I'm sure it's helpful to the general public and kind of tied into that, you know, in my. And again, these are, you know, these are probably late career photographers. You know, they've been doing it for a while, but. But I also think the person who got the main gallery my last show, Jim Goldberg, changed the way photographs go on the wall. So I would. I loved seeing Raised by Wolves. I had never seen that work installed until we just put it in this show. But Jim has so many bodies of work. He deserves a mid career retrospective for sure. And then, I don't know, you probably. This has probably happened. But these shows don't travel like they used to. It used to be when someone got a big career retrospective, it went to five or six museums across the United States with shared expenses and made these things possible. But Susan Meiselas would for sure for me be someone that I would want to see like the entirety of her career in one exhibition. And then so I mean those are kind of the more icon people for me that I would want to see. The mid career people, without a doubt, number one on my list. And it's happening at FOAM right now. But I don't think I'm going to get there to see it as Vivian Sassen. And interestingly, Vivian isn't in the wheelhouse that I know both you and I love, which is that lyrical documentary work. But I don't think people understand her impact on the medium right now and not just, not just fine art photography, because I really think she's pushing collage and other things she's doing. I think her early bodies of work are amazing and her use of color and composition are brilliant. But I also think she's just, she has. And I don't follow this world, but I know her impact on the fashion photography world is profound. So she ties into someone like an Avedon for me who has a very. Even though their styles are completely different, I'm not trying to compare them stylistically. She has a distinct style that I've seen kind of influence. Not only fine art photographers, but I also see a lot of fashion photographers trying to replicate what she does. And then, I mean, as far as that goes, it would be. There would be a lot of people who are in that Mid career realm, which would be Rinko Kawuchi, Stephen Gill, who I think has just been prolific and made some of the most interesting books and projects, you know, and again, it's not straight photography. He buries, prints, he collages things. It's just I'm always. If he's putting a book out, I'm curious to see what it is and try to understand what he's doing. And then you and I would probably have a very similar list of younger photographers and some of them you work with. So Christine Potter, I think, is a rising star. And from the moment I spoke to her and kind of understood how her mind worked around the medium, I knew she would continue to do big things. And this predates her last body of work, Dark Water. But there are Curran Hadelberg, Tanya Franco Klein, Chanel Stone, who we showed, who might not be as known to other people. Just finished her grad degree, Bryant, Scoop Mott. I thought for a long time, and this is where you don't. It was so long until this kind of what I guess is the second major body of work of his. I think it's been over 10 years. I thought at some point, and I told Brian this, he was kind of committing career suicide because he just had this momentum, and then it just went on forever. And then what I said once his last book came out, like, it doesn't matter. That's the amount of time it takes. Then that's the amount of time it takes. And that structurally gets into this gallery world where you're expected to put out a new body of work, like, every three to four years. And it was a long time for Brian, but, my God, it was a masterpiece, the book that he just put out. And we'll see.
Yeah. Sons of the Living.
Sons of the Living. And I hope, I mean, that we could unpack that book for a long time. About the kind of different chapters he's put through it, the rhythmic style, through the layout of the book, it being all black and just like, you touch that book and it just. It's exciting to look through it. And I mean, Jim Goldberg, a lot of artists said to me, like, man, what an unbelievable project. The new book is so amazing. So, I mean, you work with Raheem Fortune. I think he's great. Greg Halpern is for sure. I went to school with him. It's. There's like Vivian Sassen, Greg Halpern. I mean, there's a handful of people that it's just like, I can't believe I did not figure out a way to get them in a show. And even though we have 17 galleries, we did this for 15 years. It's just. It doesn't always line up where work makes sense in a show and you don't get to work with these people. But, I mean, I've been a fan of Greg's for a long time. He has one of the best, a distinct style. From being in school with him, I know how deeply he thinks about the medium. And look, when he was in school, the work he was making is nothing like he's making today. So I've seen that kind of arc and change in his style and him find his voice. But he is definitely someone again, who. I only experience it through books. So seeing that new book really made me realize that again. And then I would just say this. There's a lot of people that are all different genres within the medium that I think are just underrated. Ren Heng is one of them. He died young, but I just think the amount of work he made and his aesthetic was pretty remarkable. There are older photographers like Djitka, Han Slova and Lucas Felsman, even someone like Roger Balin, which I think his work pushes this edge that freaks people out or they don't like it. But I. It's rarely do you see, like, the creative mind explode like his does, you know, and the same thing, you know, his early work was a little edgy. People don't like it. But then it really has unpacked and. And it's just someone I love looking at to try to figure out what the hell's going on in his head. How does he come up with these things? Where are the, like, dreams in nightmares and everything unpacked within that. So someone for me who's super underrated is John Gossage. I don't. I don't know why he. He doesn't get more credit. He doesn't get a retrospective show. He's. He's consistently put out very strong work. I know Pond is probably one of the most influential books out there for young photographers, for sure. Especially someone like. Someone like a Tim Carpenter, who, again, I think is very interesting doing good work, but, you know, comes from that John Gossage, Robert Adams lineage of photography. You know, the more we show people like John, and especially for me, it's for any curator or institution. Let's not wait till people pass away to give them retrospectives. Let's give them retrospectives now where we can get the oral histories, because photography is still a baby and a lot of These first generation curators and photographers who started out their careers doing other things and are going to end their careers as living artists are still around and you can record kind of those histories and what they were, you know, they were palling around together, they were trying to figure it out. And those stories are important for us to keep. And then the last couple that I will mention is Gary Johansson I really like and he's again one. He's so prolific. These books are so dense. At times I think they're too dense, but I can't stop looking at them. I still haven't figured it out, but I look at it a lot, you know, on the level of a Hank Wessel. Ray Metzger to me is just distinct, unbelievable style. Unbelievable. I don't know why he isn't a more kind of sought after, hardly highly regarded photographer. And then the last one I'll leave you with is a Magnum photographer. So Sohap Hihrer, I think has made some really amazing projects. But again, I've never seen, I've seen Prince because he was part of this thing we funded called Postcards from America, but I've never seen an exhibition. And I think Vasantha in our current show is someone who I had seen books and he might be kind of the hit of the show. Most people did not know the work and resoundingly maybe other than Goldberg, and they did have the two biggest galleries so able to show the most work. We got the most comments from photographers to the general public coming in and wanting to know more. And it was just because he has such a clear visual aesthetic and voice that it's compelling, it's amazing work. And I can only imagine there's more to come for him because he's a young man. I mean, those are most of the people on those lists that I just kind of rattled off. And there are others, there's, you know, Boris Mikhailoff I really like, but never been able to show. Literally I've never seen a show of a single project, let alone all of it. And he has a long career with great work. But a lot of those people are people that I believe in, are up and coming, deserve mid career, full career retrospectives and a bunch of people that I just never got to work with, which I wish I could, which is wild to me. Like I said, when you have 17 galleries and you do 13 shows over 15 years, that math gets you to a lot of artists and especially even when we do group rooms. But I've just never been able to see those and it harkens back to the 70s and 60s, 70s, 80s, where, you know, people like Lee Freelander, when he was younger, would go to his friend's house that had a copy of American Photographs because he would never see an exhibition of that work. So he had to look at it in book form. And that's where, you know, I'm at we're at as an institution is we're just a lot of these things we're seeing in book form now, and we're not able to see exhibitions of them. So I would be curious to hear if there are artists you feel like you either a you you wish you could work with or kind of rep that are more later career or just need more recognition.
You know, there's a lot of artists I wish I worked with who work with other dealers, gallerists. Most of those people know who they are. And, you know, it's just a kind of. It's like you. I love getting in early on a project with an artist. I love being able to have those really fully focused, sort of elaborate and sometimes tough conversations are my favorites. I mean, that's. You know, I'm a huge fan of Curran's, huge fan of Greg's. Greg Halpern. I mean, there's a lot of people, Todd, who I really. I mean, I love all these folks as people. And so when you love someone's work and then you love being around them and talking to them and hearing what they're thinking and being in a position where you can push back and affect some change, hopefully for the better, you're doing a good job. I mean, there's nothing more fulfilling if you love photography. You know, there's a lot of people who I see whose work I really love, and I'm, you know, very curious about what they're gonna do next. Genesis Baez is someone who I'm always watching. Yeah, there's a lot of people. And for me, there's also people who don't have representation and I don't reach out. And that's because, you know, I have 12 artists. And for me, because of the way I work, I mean, I know a lot of galleries represent 30 or 40 artists. I can't do that. I mean, I'm really close to my artists and we're talking all the time and we're working all the time, and I just. I just don't have. There's literally just not enough hours in a day for me to work the way I like working and represent more people. So not often, but a few times a year I'll see work by someone that just really blows me away. And I can see that they're not represented. And I'm tempted, I'm so tempted to reach out, but I have to, you know, be responsible. And I did just start working with a new artist recently. I think my first new artist in two or three years and I'm incredibly excited. It's like, you know, a new relationship. It's so exciting. And going to be announcing that publicly very, very soon. But you know, you have to be careful, right? Like to make sure that you have the bandwidth to give everyone what they need and deserve. I recently brought on a sales director, Coco Conroy, who's working with me now at Sasha Wolf Projects. And you know, that's been a godsend because it allows me to have even more time to work with my gang. But it's funny, there's both a lot of really great photographers right now and there's a lot of not great work being made by a lot of other people who don't understand really what it takes to be a great artist. And I think you've sort of touched on this a little bit. You know, when an artist can talk at length, when a photographer. Just be specific. When a photographer can talk at length about the history of photography and other work and you know, that's when you know you're dealing with someone who's serious. It's not just about them and they're going out and making pictures, but it's about the whole alchemy. And that alchemy involves other work. And no, I think everyone you mentioned is talking about people who are just so mature and advanced when it comes to that kind of comprehension. And that comprehension is homework, by the way. I mean, I know, you know, if, if you're lucky, you enjoy doing it, but it's like I always tell young artists, like, you have to keep learning and even when you don't want to because that's the secret sauce. You know, I think you were saying editing and I agree that editing is phenomenally important for me, I would say the sort of beginning secret sauce is, you know, learning and learning on your own. You know, like you mentioned Raheem Fortune. Raheem is predominantly self taught. There are very few people who know the history of photography as well as Raheem for sure. It's all, I mean, he just sits at home and studies.
I mean, Raheem, Raheem has turned me on to a bunch of photographers, you know, like.
No, no, me too.
His list in my book it's like I was like, okay, I have a lot more work to do because no.
I know I go through this all the time with him. It's like he mentions someone and I'm jotting it down on a notepad next to me. It's really incredible. And those are the kind of people I want to work with. I mean, you know, but there are, there is a lot of really amazing work being made. And something else that you've brought forth in this conversation, I think importantly is that there's not enough venues. And I don't really know why that is. I really don't. I mean, I think photography is so popular and so many people can relate to it in a way they don't relate to other art forms. And I don't know why there aren't more venues. It's really perplexing. It seems like every medium sized city to big city should have, and I don't mean to just single out cities, but I'm just thinking about the economics of it and getting people through a door. If they had a photography space, it would be a successful venture. So I don't know what that is about.
Yeah, I think that's one of the things I see here. I understand one aspect of it is there's costs with photography in the belief that presentation has to be a certain way. Yes.
And that's a very complicated nut to.
Crack because painting sculptors, they show up with their painting and sculptures and you put them on the walls and you put them up. So their cost is built in. They bought canvases, they bought paint, you know, they bought the materials, wood, metal, clay, whatever it is to make the sculptures. And when they come to an exhibition, there's very little cost in putting that exhibition up where photography, if everything has to be framed, if things have to have museum plexi in them, like whatever it is, your costs go up. So, you know, there's a lot of here it's SF camera works. You know, I, I think venues like that, and I do think it's a time for young artists right now to get spaces in cities. There's a lot of commercial space and put up, you know, exhibitions and pin stuff to the walls and do things. So we're getting exposure for that, without a doubt. So I, I think I just want to echo a couple of things you said, which I agree they're, you know, I always say to students when they come to the space, if you think taking pictures makes you a photographer and meaning fine art photographer, someone who's pursuing this, you Know it does not anymore because everybody's walking around with a camera in their pocket on their phones, they're taking pictures. That is not what it means to be a working photographer. Understanding the history, studying the medium. I've never had a photo history course in my life, but I have this desire to look and you know, people like Raheem and Todd Haido and put probably me to shame for how much they are looking. Thinking is Raheem. I saw him the first time he kind of spent time with Todd Haido, and it's like you can. You could almost see the arc of electricity between their two brains as they were talking through stuff. And Raheem doesn't just talk about a specific photographer, someone I wouldn't know. He also has the ability that Hank Wessel had, where he can kind of give me the essence of why that the work is so important and what he sees within the work, which gets then makes me excited about it and wants me to go learn absolutely more about that. But that understanding your lineage, where you fall within photography, is essential to being an artist. And it's again, like, for anybody who wants to be a curator, things of that, like, I can rattle off 50 things that are super unglamorous that you have to do on a regular basis. Like, most of the time, I am not looking at pictures and thinking about photography. I'm doing the nuts and bolts stuff that you have to do to run a business like this. But that's the same thing for an artist, is there's going to be a lot. It's not the glamorous, it's not the shooting, it's not the editing, it's not the printing, it's not that that you have to do. And one of those things, the biggest, I agree with you, is that you have to kind of study and learn and continuously be doing that, because the medium is continuously, continuously moving and shifting. So without a doubt, the other thing is, if young artists are out there listening is you have to network. You have to go out to openings, you have to go to events, you have to go to fairs, you know, book fairs, whatever it is, meet the photographers, meet people, start kind of building that community, regardless of where you're at. I don't believe you have to live in New York City like you used to or LA or San Francisco or one of these kind of five major cities for arts and specifically photography. And I think Alex Soth was the one who really kind of showed that more recently in the last 20 years and proved it was, you know, he was in Minnesota. And you can travel to these things and become a part of the art world and start having exhibitions. But the thing you're talking about now is what I just don't understand and can't see right now, because we do have all these photo programs throughout the US the world. And like I said, I guarantee there's been a Susan Meiselas retrospective that I just didn't get to see. And it was at one institution and maybe traveled to one institution in Europe, but they just don't travel the way I feel like other media do. And I think part of it is, like, if you're going to pull together a Basquiat retrospective, the cost, you know, the value of those paintings, the cost, like all the nuts and bolts people don't think about when they tell me I should show a specific photographer like Man Ray. And it's like, people don't want to part with million dollar photographs. And the cost of insurance of pulling 20 of those together and traveling into. That's the same thing with Boscat. Like, if you pull that together and you go to 40 collectors and get permission for it to travel to 10 venues around the world for four years, and the insurance costs and the shipping and all of those, the publication and all the things that are going to go into that, of course you're going to make sure when you spend that kind of money that it travels. But unfortunately, how photography always is, those things just don't have the same legs. So if you pull together someone who is incredibly important to the medium, like Susan Meiselas, it might go to one or two. And if I don't happen or don't have the time in my schedule to travel to those two cities, you're just not gonna see the work.
Yeah, no, for sure. I also think, Chris, that it's, you know, a Basquiat show is such a big name that it pulls in the crowds. And I think that that's another problem with photography is, you know, photographers are just not as famous and not household names. And so, you know, unless you have a Ansel Adams show, I don't really know who would pull in.
Avedon. Cindy Sherman. Yeah.
I don't even know if Cindy would. I mean, if you're thinking about, like, middle America, you know, cities in middle America, I really don't know. What I do know is that if there were more places like Pier 24, and they don't even have to be that elaborate and that big, but just more venues that just put up photography, and even if people didn't know who the photographer was. They love photography. And if the place was manageable, size wise, that it would work out. But. And I'm talking about nonprofit spaces, right?
No, of course. Well, there's a handful of the world, right? You know, like, yeah, I know who those venues are. CEO Berlin, Le Ball, Foam House, Mersey. You know, like these institutions I always saw as our brother and sister institutions. These were the more agile, smaller staffs. You know, our space was large, but in the case of some of the other ones, like Le Ball, CEO, Berlin has moved several times and finally has a permanent home. And I'm happy to finally be able to go back to Berlin and see that because I respect that institution and how it's run. But we have those in select cities. I think those have been the models of what you can do when you're not programming three to five years out. You have this agility where you can show work right when it comes out. So even Baldwin, Lee, Donovan, Smallwood at Templeton and Curran, in our last show, a lot of those books came out within the last one to three years, and we were able to put them up right away. And I think as we talk about this, what's coming up for me is, and I've said this before, I want to see the good work that's being made now. Now, right now. And there's only a handful of curators I've ever spoke to who have a similar philosophy that have been at major institutions. And it's always what I've been curious about. And it'd be fascinating to have a show where we have several curators on here to hear their different ways of thinking about this. But, like, do they structurally build gaps into their programming so they have the flexibility of showing something great that comes out right away within their programming? So that is for me, like I said, we'll debrief personally if it's on the podcast again as I travel and what I learn. But that's one of the things I want to try to understand is what are those? What are those gaps? Why are we not seeing? Why when I talk to someone like Matthew Genatempo, does he say he's never had an exhibition in the United States? That's mind boggling to me. Like, so if.
If someone, like another great artist, another.
Great artist who puts out great books. So then if. If someone at that caliber and that stage of their career is not getting even exhibitions in small spaces in cities throughout the US Then what is it like for some grad student who Makes a great body of work that should get some recognition or publish, and they're just not going to get anything. It's disheartening. It's hard. So, I mean, part of, I think the 60s, 70s, and those things are those kind of grassroots organizations were done by the artists. They didn't wait for the kind of gatekeepers, which I know the pier has become, for sure. New York, MoMA, SFMOMA, whatever major industry you want to rattle off, do that. So here we're lucky enough to have a space that's called Book and Job Gallery, that's run by Adrian Martinez and Austin Leong, and they're starting to bring in some of these younger photographers from other cities. And Sasha, I'm not kidding. The, you know, the gallery might be 15ft by 20ft. That's how big it is. It's tiny. But I mean, the crowds that come to these openings are insane. I mean, it spills out onto the street there. So 60 people, 80 people, and, you know, 20 of them are in the gallery and 60 of them are on the street. And there's SFMOMA curators at it. There's the young curators. Like, there's clearly this desire to see this younger work and have people do that. And so, you know, to the artists out there listening who can do that, start doing the spaces. Do not worry about framing and those cost. Pin pictures up on the wall.
Yeah, I agree.
You know what I mean? Just pin them up on the wall.
Framing has become the. It's amazing, the complexity, the sort of wrench it throws into things because of the cost. And I really wish we could get away from it. And I don't know how. I mean, but it's definitely the factor that sort of upends things. But I completely agree that, as we're saying, people are really hungry to see young artists, young photographers, and it is incumbent upon the photographers themselves to put the work up because there's fewer and fewer photo galleries and there's no one else who's going to do it. I mean, it's just there's not enough institutions putting up photography shows for the amount of good work to be seen. And as you said, I mean, think of someone like Matthew Genitempo. I mean, that's a great example. And I don't, you know, I don't know what the solution is. I mean, I closed my gallery because I couldn't see. I seriously considered turning my gallery into a nonprofit because we had the crowds. I mean, every time we had an opening, it was Packed. But that doesn't translate into sales, right? And you know, those two things just are not connected. And so, you know, I knew I could continue to do this work if I didn't have, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars of overhead every year. But you know, as far as trying to place, primarily trying to place my artists in institutions, which is mostly what I do, and you know, working with them, but the hunger to see shows by people, most of whom can't afford to buy, but that's beside the point, they want to see the work. And you know, all I have to say is thank God for photo books because that's the saving grace, right? I mean, that's what's saving the photo world as far as I'm concerned. Because.
And separating it from every other medium because. Because we're saying, I guarantee you that young media artists, sculptors, painters would say, well, at least you guys can put books out. We don't get those shows and we don't have a vehicle like books and the culture around books. Right? So that is the thing. I will say this, I guarantee, if I called Todd Hido as soon as we got off here and said, hey Todd, you know, I want to do a pop up show of your work in the city. We're just going to pin prints to the walls. He would be like, I'm in, right? And I think that's just the thing is we become so accustomed to like the final piece of any exhibition for photography is this framing. And you know, it was. We made a conscious decision probably about eight years ago to stop putting plexiglass in photographs if we were producing the work by living artists. Because like if someone sneezes on it, we'll reprint it if it damages it for the exhibition, but we don't have to protect it like it's a, you know, Carlton Watkins mammoth plate or a Man Ray photograph. That's the value. You would never put it on without glass on it. And that was just one way we could do bigger things because we're cutting our production budget by not putting plexi as the most, especially optium and anti reflective plexis. So to do that, that's where it's like, you know, my call to heart is, which is like start, I will come. Like, I love going to booking job shows and I'm so grateful that they're in this city because I get exposed. Whether I like the work or not, there's a, there's just an energy around it that they bring to the culture that we're missing. In San Francisco, and we have been missing. So my suggestion to them was do a Matthew Jenna Tempo show and just pin them on the walls. Exactly what we're talking about. Like, I will come out, the other curators are going to come out, and it's going to be great exposure for Matthew would probably come to the city, gets to meet everybody here, just like having a show anywhere else. And it's just like build that community if the institutions aren't going to provide that. And let's be honest, I, you know, like, you're not. I don't even get invited to a lot of the photo dinners here when they happen at museums. So most young photographers definitely are not. Well, start building that around that, you know, people are happy. And I guarantee you're going to start. The more momentum you create, you're going to. Collectors are going to start coming in. And that's what I said to them. You might sell a print here or there, which helped fund your little kind of startup gallery space that you have. So I think we definitely need more of that. And when you talk to people like Todd Hido and Matthew Genitempo or whoever it is, Tanya, Franco Klein and these people, like, they for sure would do projects like that. And then you can, you know, you start building that voice, you start building that momentum for people early in their career. You know, it might lead to a single print by someone being in an SFMOMA show, because Shane or Aaron come there and they're like, we like this work. It fits in. I mean, curators, for anyone listening, just know curators talk all the time. So when they're working on a show about a specific theme or idea, I will write someone and ask who is a great photographer making work in this kind of realm right now? And I get a bunch of answers. And then I. If I know the work, you know, I'm aware of it and I kind of look at it a little deeper. But a lot of times I'm unaware of work and I look at it and it leads to us putting people in shows and those things. So the more you're putting things out into the world, the better chance there are for that to kind of snowball for someone and build a career. And what you're saying is 100% accurate earlier, which is photography is the number one medium for people that they like to go see. And I'm just talking about the not like avid lovers of art who go to museums in every city, but just like people like when you look at statistics for Facebook and things which now, yeah, of course, everybody lists. Photography is like the number one listed hobby or interest. So, I mean, it's very clear there is a disconnect right now. And there's someone who I absolutely love and think is a great artist named Daniel Gorton who does a completely. Which is. Is not in that kind of lyrical documentary world that I am in the most.
I know Daniel's work, but.
Yeah, but he's an amazing artist. And when people. My mom loves that work, everybody. So when you see the work, that's not hard to figure out how to understand the work. When someone looks through John Gossage's pond, they might be like, I like this. But if you ask them what they. What it was about, or they'd struggle. And that's lyrical. Documentary. It's very hard for people respond to it. We see it in our space all the time, but they don't. They struggle with the comprehension of the work, the literacy of the work. And it's challenging. It's challenging for me. I mean, you have to look and look and look. But there. That's where there's this void of kind of education to get the general public to understand those photographs more and then want to live with them. Because everybody, if I. If I show my mom or any of her friends Daniel Gordon's work, they all want to live with it because it's different. It looks like they're shocked that it's a photograph. It looks like a painting because he's sculpting everything. I mean, he is unbelievable at what he does. But if I showed them Henry Wessel, there's certain pictures that they would get and want and want to live with, and then there's a lot that they would struggle with. And part of that within those realms is, you know, in a world of art where painting, sculpture, we focus on the individual object. Lyrical documentary things that kind of hover in that realm of documentary work. It's about the entire project. And to really understand it, you need to see a substantial amount of the project, not just one image. There's always one or two images that we all know that get kind of pulled out from any project, and they become the iconic photographs to this day. And again, no disrespect to Alex Soth, I have no idea why the guy holding the two planes from Sleeping by the Mississippi is like the picture from that project that goes crazy at auction that every collector wants. Because to me, there's so many more complex pictures with more layers that the more you look at it, the more it reveals. But that's going to happen with any project. But. But there has to be a level of education around lyrical documentary and these projects that the book form becomes very important to. And that's why it becomes so important, because you have the entire project, you have it in a sequence that the artist made. And this has been the number one struggle with things like that at the pier is if I take someone's work and I give them too small of a gallery that just doesn't work within it and I have to only show five pictures out of the five, 40 that are in the project, that project then becomes harder to understand for the general public.
Oh, yeah, for sure.
You know, and I've always talked to classes about this or people when they come through. I call it the gaps in between. You know, all of these projects, between each time you turn the page, there's a little gap. That gap is typically filled by the viewer, you know, because we all have different backgrounds. So they're leading you in a direction, Alec, whoever it is, and you have to fill that gap. Tanya Franco Klein has spoke about this very well, about people not understand, trying to force kind of certain narratives onto her work and her at a very young age. This is why I think she's one of the biggest rising stars, having to rethink how she puts pictures on walls so people didn't force those narratives, those, those wrong narratives on tour work. But what it basically is, is if I took Sleeping by the Mississippi and I showed five pictures of it and I don't know what's in that book, I'm just, just going to say 40, those gaps get so enormous they can't be filled anymore. You can't connect it the right way, you know, so that's the hard part. Again, with the lake of photography that you and I swim in the most. Being lyrical documentary is not only are there not enough shows, is enough space being given for people to truly understand the work. And it's what we struggle with here for sure, is really looking at the work until unpacking it, making sure the artist's voice is coming forward. But are we going to be able to give it enough space that you truly can comprehend the work? And again, within any of that, those gaps, regardless of their size, part of it's being filled by the viewer because you have a different background of what you see in work and the different things. And when I taught, I would always show a picture by William Eggleston of this green bathroom, like green tile shower stall. And one of the powers within that picture would always be. I responded to that picture because it reminded me of my grandparents bathroom and that I had that tie. Well, you're not going to have that same tie to that picture. So like the gap that it fills and like certain things that within looking through the guide or different projects are going to be different for most viewers and what they bring to the table. But that has always been the struggle for me. And even speaking with family members and different things when they're trying to understand what the hell I do for a living other than putting pictures up in museums, that I'm constantly looking at books and trying to understand this medium and the struggle within that is how do you present it to the public and educate them in a way that certain photographers. It's the entire body of work that is the piece and Friedlander and Wessel and all of these early photographers to Susan Meiselas, to latoya Ruby Fraser. Now it's within that realm of this book. This is the project. So when you separate it into an exhibition and you only show three pieces, I don't know that it's being conveyed the same way that if you pull a singular Basquiat out of a, you know, the pieces he was making over a one year period, I still think that speaks on a level in a different way than a single photograph from a documentary style project.
Yeah, no, there's no question. And that is a really big challenge. I mean I think of the type of work that you and I are talking mostly about lyrical documentary, post documentary as a project is like a novel and it's hard to just take a chapter or what's beautiful is there are those images that do seem to encapsulate most of the project in them. And that's always a really beautiful thing. That is the chapter that you can read alone that somehow seems to tell you so much about the whole novel. But you always do best with the whole thing. There's no question. I mean I've talked to many artists about this weird thing that happens. I mean, I remember Greg Halpern and I having this conversation many, many years ago about like I asked him, you know, what does it feel like to you when someone buys one of the landscapes from. There's a handful of really beautiful landscapes in Zyzz. And I asked him like, what does it feel like to you if someone buys one of the really beautiful landscapes? Because it really has nothing to do with the project as a whole, but they pull out something that's more palatable in a way. And I'M not going to get into his end of the conversation, but it is complicated and I'm going through this right now with selling work from Sons of the Living to individual collectors. They're less likely to buy some of the really challenging portraits, which are the heart of the project. They're more likely to buy one of the landscapes, particularly the road pictures that are quite beautiful. And that's always a thing, you know. But I agree that to me, the ideal is having one of these spaces that we're sort of fantasizing about, like Pier 24. And like, to me, something I would just love would be to have the job of talking to people about it. And I would start with, well, what I see is, what I get is. And then ask the people, what do you see? What do you get? Because as you're saying, everyone is going to have. But to be able to set it up with certain. Here's what we know is going on. And beyond that, it's up to you to, you know, bring your life experience in and have your own experience with it. But yeah, I agree with you, these are real challenges. But I believe that with enough, I don't know, enthusiasm, guts, sense of adventure, we could have a lot more spaces showing this type of work and it would be real benefit to everyone.
Right?
I mean, can it just be the photo book? Maybe. And, you know, we're so grateful for the proliferation of small publishers. Thank God for them. But yeah, it would be lovely to see more work in person, prints on the wall.
I would just say this, and I know we're probably getting close. Time goes very quickly when I'm talking to you and we start unpacking some of these things. But, you know, with the closing of the Pier, which is this epic space of 17 galleries and all of this, you know, that is one of the voids when I travel around the world that you would be. That I know already exists because this will no longer be here. I don't know. A 17 gallery space is so ambitious and crazy that now having had zero museum experience and gone through 15 years of it, I don't know, it's wonderful for people to come to, but it limited kind of our programming. And one of the things when we were before the lease were discussing was are we going to change kind of how we structurally do shows within that if 17 galleries are closing here, there's an opportunity. And obviously with the outpouring I saw on social media when we kind of did our. This is the final days where we're closing the door and talked about community. It's opening the opportunity for other cities to do pop ups. And like I said, we're in a state right now where there's abundant commercial real estate estate in every city. There's opportunities to convince people to let you use their space for pop up. So even if these things don't, like the pier lasted 15 years, these things might last 6 months, 2 years, 5 years.
Right? Yes.
You have the ability, forget about framing, do pop up shows, you know, like in cities like Paris or New York Art Book Fair. Find ways to do pop up shows close to those during the week that those happen. I truly believe that they're. And I see it right now. I know it. I rattled off a ton of them, from Christine Potter to Greg Halpern to Raheem Fortune, you know, Chanel Stone, whoever it is. Scoot Mott, I could go on and on. There is this young generation coming up that is very talented, knowledgeable, and ambitious. And I know there's thousands more that I don't know about that are out there making work, do the pop ups. Like people will come to them. We need, I think that's one of the things we need right now in the photo world. Like do not depend on the kind of named major institutions to bring this work forward. We need the community to start doing that and figuring out the spaces and there will be recognition. That is literally how Le Ball came forward. And Labal is.
I completely agree.
And Le Ball is a force now within the photo world, just like CEO Berlin is foam and all these smaller institutions, you know, you might start a small space that starts pinning things to the wall. You might get collectors and momentum. And then all of a sudden you have someone who wants to help support, you know, an actual physical space that you rent, that you can do more things. So it starts with a drop. So, you know, start doing those things. For sure.
100%. I. I'm with you 100%. I think that would just be amazing if we could see that energy out there.
The last thing I want to say, because you and I, you've become this to me at times. I think I've become this to you at times. And we didn't get a chance to talk about this, but. And it'll be for another private conversation, because I know dealers and galleries at times feel like they're operating on an island and they talk to each other now and then, but they don't always kind of unpack things. But I think the biggest thing we're talking about a lot and I Take it back to sports is when I was thinking about doing the podcast today, I was thinking like, we need more champions. And champions didn't feel right. Because when I say that, it sounds like, you know, super bowl champion, like we need more bigger things. I think what we need more is coaches. You know, when I say champion, I mean someone who champions a career. I don't think you realize how much of an impact it has on a person to person basis. I see Todd Hido do it. I definitely do it. I know you do it, but I was lucky enough to have great champions through my whole life. And it started at home. Not everybody has a great home life, but with my mother, it went on to people like Stephen Goldstein, who is out here, that I'd love to tell his story at some point to your listeners. And then it went into Andy Pilara, who runs this space, who championed what I did and those things, even on a small level, I do that with a lot of young photographers as much as I can. That's the other thing we need more of is, are these the John Gossage I know he does it, and whoever I say I know probably does it on some level. But we need. Richard Misorak is the absolute best at this. It's what Richard Mizerak to me, is the king of photography in the Bay Area because he mentors, he champions, he coaches. He's just unbelievably generous with the young photographer. So that's the one other thing I think we need. And again, Sascha doesn't pay me to do this last time on the podcast, but I really see this podcast as being a part of the ecosystem of photography that does these things. For me to be able to listen to photographers and curators and hear their backgrounds and how they're thinking about is priceless to me. It's part of that education you're talking about. So again, these things just don't happen. I know it from running a nonprofit space. If you listen to a podcast, Even if it's 20 bucks, give money. Because if you look at what Photoworks is doing right now with mentorships, with great people like Raheem Fortune, Brian Scrutmot that are mentoring younger photographers, the things that are getting set up is exactly what we need within the community. So. So you are building a team. You're pulling in all these coaches to help people and support the work. So Sasha's giving back. Michael, they're doing this great work. So make sure you're helping fund it. If you want to see more of it.
Thank you, Chris. Really appreciate that. It's a joy. I love it. I love the world we're in. I feel unbelievably grateful. And I'll just say, just to tie it back to what you were saying about just getting out and doing stuff, you know, I came from a photography and filmmaking background and when I opened my gallery, I'd never worked in a gallery. I didn't know how to write an invoice, I didn't know how to pack stuff. I didn't know how to do anything. And that was my version of, you know, let's just go for it. And it's been at times brutally difficult, but it's been so incredibly gratifying. I think I'm at. I think I'm at 23 years now of doing this. So I'm so grateful to be a part of this fantastic community. But what I really wanted to say there was, yes, just go out and do it. Just go out and do it. Nothing terrible will happen. As Chris said, if it lasts for six months, that's great. If you put up a few great shows in six months that people see, they'll talk about it, they'll learn about new work. If, if it's something that turns into a years or decades long project, great. It doesn't matter. Just go and show your work and show your friends work and we're all in this together and supporting one another. So I think that people will be met with much enthusiasm. Chris, my friend, thank you so, so much and we'll talk to you again down the line as you go on your scavenger hunt, your info seeking next phase of your life. Look forward to it.
Yeah, I'm very excited about doing that and thank you for having me on again. I love the talks, so it means a lot to me to be able to chat with you.
Thank you, Chris. All right, take care of yourself more soon.
Okay, sounds good.
Okay, bye.
Photo Work with Sasha Wolff is production of the Photo Work Foundation. Executive producer is Sascha Wolf and the associate producer is Taylor Selsbach. The show is also produced and edited by me, Michael Chovendalt in a real photo show. Music is by J. Walter Hawks. If you like the show and wish to find out more about the foundation, please visit PhotoArk foundation and be sure to subscribe and review with all the stars on your listening platform.