Phil Rickaby: Hello, welcome to Stageworthy. I'm Phil Rickaby, the host and producer of this podcast. Stageworthy is Canada's theatre podcast, and on Stageworthy, I talk to theatre makers of all types, from actors to directors to playwrights, stage managers, producers. If they make theatre in Canada, I talk to them. Some of the people I talk to are household names, and the rest are people that I really think you should get to know. If you happen to be watching on YouTube, do me a favour, leave a comment so I know you were here. Like this episode, and if you like Stageworthy in general, hit the subscribe button and that bell icon as well, because that will make sure that every time I put out a new episode, you'll get notified that a new episode is available. If you're listening to the audio version, make sure that you're subscribed. Go to your favourite podcast app, search for Stageworthy, and hit the follow button. And while you're there, especially if you are listening on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, do me a favour and leave a rating and review. Ratings and reviews are really great for podcasters. They help new people to find the show, and also, I mean, it's really, it's good to get feedback and to hear if people like the show or not. So do me that favour, and I would be very grateful. Speaking of gratitude, I do have a Patreon, which I will talk about at the end of the show right before I tell you who my guest is next week. But if you want to help me to make the show, go to patreon.com/stageworthy and become a patron. My guest this week is Chantel Winters. Chantel is an actor, a playwright, a producer based in Toronto, and is also one of the producers and actors in the film adaptation And Other Concerns, which is, as we discussed last week when I was talking with Blythe Haynes, a filmed adaptation of An Alice in Nectar and Other Concerns, which was a Fringe hit in 2019. It was a great conversation and I really enjoyed getting to know Chantel, and so will you, because here's my conversation with Chantel Winters. Chantel Winters, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you giving me some time. You are an actor, a playwright, and a producer. I love talking to multi-hyphenates because when I was going through theatre school, they basically said that was an impossible course of action. They were, they were like, you're, if you're just gonna, if you're not just gonna be an actor, don't even bother. And now people don't do that. When did you realize that you needed to add or wanted to add more titles to what you do?
Chantel Winters: When I started auditioning, probably. Like, oh, okay. It's tough out there. And you know, everyone says you have to make your own work, and I think they are 100% right. So I think that's when I started, but I've always liked playwriting. That's something I've sort of done on the side here and there, but I only really started producing work more recently as I got older. And you just have to learn how to produce. I, unless you're working constantly, I think you have to learn how to produce just to get to do maybe some of the roles that you want to do.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, you do have to do that. And I think it takes some people longer to get to that point, to that realization. How quickly did you, like you said, when you started to audition, but like, at what point were you like, no, I gotta, I gotta start producing my own stuff.
Chantel Winters: I'm like, what's the first thing that I did would have been French. It would have been a French show. And you know, it's weird though, when I did start producing and writing, I didn't actually want to be in anything that I did just because I'm like, this is just taking up so much time. So if I did intentionally do it so that I would have roles, that's not where I ended up.
Phil Rickaby: That is so interesting because I think a lot of people, when they start writing, they write so that they have roles. And you also mentioned like playwriting as, as a thing that you've all done a lot of what, what is there something that you feel like kept you from being like, no, no, I'm writing this role for me.
Chantel Winters: Is there something that kept me from doing that?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Chantel Winters: I definitely, no, I would say even with my last show, I definitely wrote it and I'm like, I'm going to play the role. I'm going to play the role. And then it came down to it and it was just timing and picking up other things. And my agent being like, you're not taking that much time off. So the few things, but I, but I also, I think starting to produce, I like to give other people opportunities as well. I get a lot out of that and just producing is so much work. I would say the one time that I did do it would have been on, and other concerns when we did the film adaptation as I was like, we're making breakfasts and stuff in the morning and lunch and snacks for the crew. And it's like, then we have to go on set and we have to act. I'm like, I'm not doing all this all together anymore. Like, this is crazy. Some people get a lot of, they're like, I get bored on set if I'm just acting. Cause a lot of the time you're just waiting. Obviously that's different for theatre, but once the show goes up, that's it. You're just doing the show. You can do all the producing stuff for the most part ahead of time, but with film, it's, it's too much. And I don't do it for either.
Phil Rickaby: No. I mean, whenever I've self-produced stuff, I, like you said, you do as much as you can in advance. Like I front load everything I can so that during the performance, you don't have to worry about it. Like any kind of promotional stuff, shooting so many promotional images in advance, just so you have, you could just like put them out there, but yeah, it's, you have to do all that stuff. But also I think a lot of people don't know who aren't in the industry don't know about how boring it is to act in a film. Like how much time you're sitting around doing nothing. The first time that you were on set, had you been sufficiently prepared for that?
Chantel Winters: The first time I was on set, I was very lucky that I did get, I was higher up on the call sheet. So I was doing a lot. So I thought this is what it is, how it's going to be, you know, in fact, I need to take snacks with me. Cause you know, I'm just on set the whole time that, that did not, I think happen again for a long time. And you just sit and wait. It felt, I used to do background work when I was in high school. It felt almost like that. Like you're just sitting, you're waiting for someone to call you, set it up. You go back, you sit, you wait. And these are 12 hour days. Yeah. It's, it's very, it can be pretty long. It gets boring, but you get to talk to people. You fill your time meeting people and chit-chatting with makeup and everyone.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I remember one of the early, early, early films that I did. I think it was even just a student film, but I remember a couple of the people who were acting in it just got so angry that they weren't like doing anything. They were like waiting to go on. They were like, why do they call us here at this time? We're not going to use us. And it's like, after the years go on, you're like, Oh, okay. Yeah, no, this is just what it is. The first time I heard hurry up and wait was like eyeopening. Cause that's what life on a set is for a lot of people.
Chantel Winters: No, absolutely. I remember being on a film set and one of the guys, he came in and he like brought his laptop and he was making beats. He's like, yeah, I DJ on the side. And this is like, he was doing his waiting time. I'm like, that is so smart. I'm going to start bringing my work to and like multitasking when I'm on set, because if you know your stuff, you're already prepared. Yeah. You're just sitting, you've been prepped. Why not? Why not get some errands done?
Phil Rickaby: You might as well. I mean, if you can sign some emails, if you're writing, you can work on that. You got to occupy your brain somehow. Otherwise it's just literally sitting in like staring at the clock, which in many ways is like an office job. Yeah. You did mention your last show. Was that Dear Ms. Kitt? Yes. Tell me about Dear Ms. Kitt. Cause it sounds like a fascinating show.
Chantel Winters: Okay. So Dear Ms. Kitt, I'm going to give you the long version then. Dear Ms. Kitt was a show that I wrote maybe six, seven years ago. And I got very lucky. I got one of the recommender grants to do the writing. And then it was submitted to the Broadway Bound Theatre Festival in New York. And we did, I guess, a production there. It was completely American director, cast, everything. And so we were like producing it from here. But again, it was under festival, which was great. And we went down there, we got notes. It was like a playwriting festival. They were directed to some liberties with it, but there were certain things that came out of it that I was like, no, it really works. That really works. And other things I'm like, no, I don't think we're going to keep that. But we came back with this energy. We're going to put it up in our hometown. We're going to put it up in Toronto, but it was 2020 and that did not happen. So it's sort of in five years and waiting to try and do this. I got to workshop it with alumni. And it was sort of like, I think a bit rushed and like, I need to put this up. I need to do it. I've saved up some money. I'm going to do it. Whatever. I didn't get any grants. I know how to produce. I've done this under festival. How different or difficult could it be? And that was super eye opening. Things do not cost the same amount that they did back in 2019. And it was funny because I had this chart because every year I'm like, I'm going to put it up this year. And I would just like track the theatre rental rates. And I'm like, if I don't put it up, I'm not going to be able to afford to ever put this up. So that was one of the things. But it definitely taught me the value of like working under festival and getting to do something with fringe and how much they take care of the marketing for you. Right. I didn't realize that until I was like, how come nobody is like getting tickets? Like, why is it so hard to sell tickets? I've never had to do this before. Like, even in New York, we had an audience. I don't even know anybody there. I'm like, this is weird. And I think because I'd done fringe last summer and before I did the show, I was skewed about people buying tickets just because a lot of fringe shows sold out. We had a really good run. I was in Honey Never Spoils. And I was like, yeah, that'll just like float down to my show in August that is out when CNU is up and running and all of that. And that didn't happen. But the show itself was so great. Loved my director, loved everyone who worked on it. They put in it was like such a passion project for me. By that point, my co-producer had like moved to Calgary in the five years that we were working on this. But it was like, I am putting on this show because I cannot move on to anything else until this goes up. And yeah, it was it was it was a beautiful show. It was a beautiful show.
Phil Rickaby: I think a lot of people who produced fringe and then try to produce outside of fringe have the same eye-opening moment because it's not just that the fringe takes care of a lot of the marketing. It's also because of the nature of fringe. There is a focused audience that is looking for things to see at that time of year and at other times of year. They're not looking for things to see. You have to like look for them to show them your thing and make them want to see it. And it's a lot more work to get them to come. And it's so hard to do. Yeah, it is fringe. Fringe is kind of like producing in a way with training wheels on.
Chantel Winters: Oh, yeah. I spoke to other artistic directors and other people in the industry. I'm like, I just don't get it. Like, why? Why wasn't I like getting an audience? And they're like, to be fair, a lot of shows like 30 percent is normal. And I was like, what? I didn't budget for 30 percent. That was not what I was expecting, especially when fringe was getting like 80, 100 percent. I'm like, crazy. It was crazy.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. 30 percent houses is like is the thing that you're more likely to get. And yet, again, who wants to think that their show is only going to be 30 percent full? So you always sort of hope for more. And it's hard to budget for 30 percent because then you're thinking, if I'm going to break even, what's my ticket price have to be to do that? And it's it's there's so many things to think about.
Chantel Winters: Yeah, and it was really important to me, I didn't want to charge too much for tickets because I just wanted to make it as accessible as possible and especially just with everything. So I thought I did swallow cost on. But I was really happy because the other thing is Dear Miss Kent is a tragedy. It is a slow burn. It's about motherhood and abandonment and guilt and these heavy topics. And, you know, I was like, and the theatre crowd, they'll they'll get it. They'll be into it. But I got a lot of the mainstream crowd and I'm like, oh, no, they like musicals. And this is far from a musical. This is going to be tough. But a lot of people did connect with it. Really nice reviews and a lot of personal connections for the people who were able to come out and see it, which was great. And I think that was one of my actual biggest fears going into it. I'm like, I don't know if most people are going to like this. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Well, what do you think what it was that drew in the mainstream crowd that you weren't expecting?
Chantel Winters: I think the actors, Gen Z, very good with their social media, to be honest. I think a lot of it was them. Yeah. And it's it was sort of like it's this black family that grew up around music. So I found a lot of people either connected with the music or this like person missing from their family that or I'd had people come up to me and it was like the alcoholism that was their connection. So there were so many things that I just I I was worried about that I didn't need to be worried about. I really just sort of focused on marketing.
Phil Rickaby: In terms of this play, like what was it that drew you to these themes? What was it that drew you to this story that you wanted to write it? What what was the impetus for Dear Miss Kid?
Chantel Winters: Dear Miss Kid, I started it actually in university, but I do remember distinctly like it began when I would my uncle would come over all the time to our house and just like have a coffee. I don't know. Retired guy have a coffee and like play his music and stuff. And I just remember one time he's like, oh, the kid was the best cat woman. I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I looked it up. I'm like, she's black. Oh, my gosh. You're the black cat woman. And it was a crazy thing for me because it's just I grew up in the 90s. That's not what I grew up with. And that's not what I the sort of superheroes I was used to now. Like this generation, they see all sorts of colors. But for me, it was like a big deal. And then I started like looking up some of these old Hollywood, like black old Hollywood stars. And I'm like, oh, wow. Like, you know, Josephine Baker was doing adopting all the children of the world before Angelina Jolie. Like who knew that like this existed? That was that was really cool. So it was sort of this connection of how music could connect me to like my older generation in my family and that being passed down.
Phil Rickaby: When I was a kid, that Batman series was in rerun. So I did watch it on TV because I'm an old man. And the transition because, you know, when they started the series, it was it was Julie Neumar. Then they transitioned to Eartha Kitt without fanfare. It's just it happened. And it was just like this is still Catwoman. But now it's maybe this because they did not temper the sexual tension between her and Bruce Wayne and Batman at all. And it was like, this is just like this is this is Batman reacting to Catwoman. And it was like, she's black, but it doesn't. It's like this is like an interracial relationship that's happening here. And it was a fascinating thing to watch, especially as a kid who had an interracial family. So like it's a fascinating thing to see in a way your family dynamic reflected back on the screen in in various ways.
Chantel Winters: No, it's so important. Like it means a lot when you do see it. And I think that's sort of like my reaction to like that her existing is sort of like Rose, the little kid in the stories has that the similar reaction becomes fascinated by her and stuff. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I was looking back at some of the past shows that you've done, and one of the titles sort of jumped out at me. And that was She Kills Monsters, which is a great title. I was looking up this show and it has like D&D stuff, which is very close to my nerd heart. But this is like this was, I think, at the Imperial Pub. Yeah, yeah.
Chantel Winters: I think it's an American play, but we got to produce it. We did it. Yeah. In that space in the Imperial when it existed, because the director, producer knew, I think, the owner as well. It was so much fun. It was like one of the most fun productions I've ever been on. And I remember he made us all like learn how to play D&D. The first rehearsal, I don't remember any of it. This was a long ago. But I remember being like, yeah, I think I'm going to join a D&D crew. I don't think that's what they're even called. But yeah, yeah. So much fun.
Phil Rickaby: Listen, it's much easier to talk about joining a D&D group than it is to actually physically do one or schedule a game, because every game kind of devolves into I'm not free this week. I'm not free this week. So, you know, it's a lot easier when you're, I don't know, kids.
Chantel Winters: Oh, and you have free time.
Phil Rickaby: You have a lot more free time and you're looking for something to do on the weekends and nobody has like responsibilities. Yeah. Let's let's start talking about and other concerns and the show that it came from, which was an atlas and a necktie and other concerns, if I have that right. You were in that show in the Toronto Fringe and that show. Did you did you go to Orangeville for that?
Chantel Winters: I went to one of them. I think I went to because there were two performances or maybe only did one of the performance. No, no. There was one I heard that was at a speakeasy, a curling club.
Phil Rickaby: Oh, the curling club. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. I don't think I was that one. So I think I went to the Orangeville one because there was an actual Peter's face.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was up there, too. I did both of those. And it's great to be able to, like, take a show so quickly after the Toronto Fringe. It gets to, like, do it again. But for another another audience that didn't get to see it in Fringe, what was the run of that show at Fringe like for you?
Chantel Winters: Oh, that was like one of the smoothest shows I think I've ever been a part of. Lauren, who produced and directed it, she's like on top of things, got us really, really early compared to, like, other Fringe shows that I've been in. And she'd also done there was this festival called Scripted Toronto that happens right before Fringe. We also did that right before. So it's almost like we had I don't want to call it a dress rehearsal because it wasn't. But, you know, we got to do the show before it went to Fringe, make changes so that by the time we did Toronto Fringe, it was like we knew the show inside out. We had changed props are like, oh, you know, these costumes actually don't make sense. Like we we had a chance to test things in front of an audience. So, yeah, that's what I would say about that run. And going to being the best at Fringe North, I was already in another Fringe show in Kingston, so I had to split it. And this actor comedian, I believe her name is Janelle, came in and had to do my character for one show up there. I heard it went very, very well. And they had a great time. But I was freaking out. I'm like, oh, no, this is the only performance I've ever missed. And but she did a great job, I heard. And she jumped in. And yeah, I will say when we went from Toronto to to Orangeville, we were like, people didn't laugh as much. It's a comedy. And I remember being like, I'm laughing as much. I'm like, I'm really getting it like that. It is very much a show geared towards artists, I would say. It's about an artist trying to choose like nine to five or art, baby or art, you know, and having that struggle. So maybe that's what it is. Maybe the the audience down there, it was more like Fringe people in there were going through it. Not sure. Maybe it was just because we were in the space the one time and didn't have like all of it, although like tech stuff.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, it could be that. But also it just could be because the the audience is one of the things that David Nairns was trying to do with the best of Fringe North was to try to expose Orangeville to more independent and alternative theatre. And it might just be that they're a group that normally is seeing like musicals and things like that. And that this like indie stuff is kind of new when they're trying to figure it out. I don't know. But I think I think you're right about about the the the audience was a little slower to react.
Chantel Winters: Yeah, I mean, also, maybe we're louder down here, too.
Phil Rickaby: Maybe that could be it. But now the the play has been sort of imagined for the screen as and other concerns, which is now on CBC Gem. But I mean, you have to translate a stage show into a film and you were producing along with everybody else who was in the cast. You were all sort of co-producers. What was that process like to to bring that to the screen?
Chantel Winters: I would say on it, I think that that sort of thank you, COVID. I mean, we find like these silver linings that came out of COVID and there was just such a need to do something. All of us had worked on that show and then COVID hit and craving connection. And I think it was Blythe's idea like we should like, you know, adapt this into one of the the Zoom web series that we were doing. Right. And we're like, yeah, we're going to adapt it into a Zoom web series and we're going to continue this story. So like what happens after that last moment? And we we did. We like started filming it. We figured it out. But Zoom fatigue like happened really quickly. I know I had done a couple of Zoom shows with the other actors. I'd done a couple of Zoom shows, but I got to that point where I'm like, I cannot watch another Zoom play. I think I'm done. And then we got funding and we were like, we'll make it a web series. We'll do it on location. So this was my first time ever producing for film and television. I've acted in it. So I've been around it, but I've never produced. We are so lucky that there were a couple other producers in there and the director, they knew what they were doing because that was they really like guided us and got things done and helped us out. And I sort of was like, oh, you want me to do this? Yes, I'll do this. Oh, drive this here. I was like PA producing, but also just really lucky to be in with people with that much experience because I'm like, oh, I'm going to take that when I produce my short film. Oh, OK, that's how you do that. Well, this is where you find these people. So I was really lucky there. I will say having five now six producers, it can be like slower for decisions. So that sort of took time and everyone has an opinion and that took time, especially when we got into post. But we we filmed this web series and we looked at the footage and we're like, yeah, it's not a web series. It is definitely not a web series. It doesn't have like that. And so it was more like trying to figure out how to cut it down to a short. That was a lot. But because we wanted to keep the theatre aspect of it, it all happened in one room. So I remember when we were sort of pitching it and like looking for a director or trying to find like funding, a lot of people were like, I don't know about this one room thing. And we're like, well, we like that. Like this is adapted from theatre. We want to keep that aspect of it. And it's an escape. It's in one room. She's trying to get out of an escape room. So there was a lot of pushback there where we got like, no, like do a walk and talk like it was kind of like pushing us to like do the typical. Film TV sort of thing, and so we were happy that we kind of stuck our ground with that, like this is what this is and we're going to keep like those elements in there.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. You were talking earlier about the Zoom fatigue in the early days of the of the pandemic. And I remember, I mean, at first it was like, oh, I get to see. I remember I think it was Factory doing a production of House and they did it in the actor's basement. They like set up a camera and they did the whole thing just in his in his basement in front of a camera. That was the first exposure to it. But that's fine for a one person show. But I think the thing that that sort of killed it because Zoom for a server for one thing isn't built for theatre. It's not built for connection. It's built for business. It's built for meetings. And so you can't connect with other actors in that way. And I think it's bad. And so no wonder that we all got kind of tired of it as a thing. I'm so glad that so many shows started to try to experiment with other platforms, other things to be able to to do web series and then filmed experiences, because I think that was a much better experience for people than than Zoom was.
Chantel Winters: Oh, yeah. But I'm thankful that we just had this because I don't think I would have gone on to, like, do more producing for a short film. I think I just would have been so scared by what what it is. And having that guidance really, really, I think, set me on a different path.
Phil Rickaby: What do you think that you was the most important thing that you learned as from watching other people produce and now that you've taken on for your own producing?
Chantel Winters: Shutting up sometimes. Still learning that one, actually. But yes, definitely shutting up sometimes asking why instead of saying no. And like stepping back and given like you've gotten people that these are experts in what they do and letting them, you know, trusting them to do it instead of micromanaging everything or trying to and feeding people. Constantly feed people. People are happy when they're fed. Everything's better when they're fed. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Coffee and food is I mean, that that is I remember, you know, in any of the films I've done, that's the that is the most important thing. Like the worst that can happen is people get hungry and they get cranky. Yeah. You are working on a new play.
Chantel Winters: I am. I started working on it and then I sort of put it aside, but I am working on actually something where I'm kind of taking this film world and this theatre world and putting it on stage. In a way, I'm looking at aging, like women aging in Hollywood. It's called Aging Gracefully. And I'm still like in early drafts of it. So it's going to take some time. But I feel like I could just start applying to Fringe because it's so hard to get there for the lottery. And like by the time I have it done, I might.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, but then you then, you know, you think that and then it will be the time when you're not ready and they pull your name and you have to just make it work.
Chantel Winters: But then you sometimes when you have a deadline, you're like, all right, we're doing this. Read it. Read it. Read it. Feedback. Feedback. Feedback. All right.
Phil Rickaby: 100 percent. There's nothing like a deadline to get stuff done. I wrote my solo play for eight years before I got into a Fringe. And I don't think that if I had a Fringe date, I ever would have stopped writing it. I could still be working on it today if not for that.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. And then sometimes I'm like, oh, but they have the satellite venue. Like, why don't you do the satellite venue? I don't know why I've been thinking about it more and more. It's like when I'm ready, why not just get the satellite venue? Because that's less of a that's less challenging, right? If you can bring your own venue.
Phil Rickaby: It is less challenging in terms of like you pitch to the venue. And I think it's probably a little bit more expensive because you have to pay the venue as well. And I think the challenge of it is that especially now that the Fringe is largely at its hub in the at Soulpepper, that the satellite venues are a little further away or a lot further away, which means that they are it's harder to run between venues because of the distance between Soulpepper and the other venues, not to mention that the fact that the TTC gives us no help at all as far as like just it being what it is.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. Yeah. We were at Terragon when I did Honey Universe Spoils and we were like, we're so far away from the hub. But then we had other people who were like, I'm used to this area. This is the area I always come to. I've been coming here for years and we have that audience at least. But it would be nice to be able to get something sort of around there.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, I think I think that area needs a Fringe tent. It needs a beer tent. It needs some place for people to get social. It's a mini hub. Yeah. But, you know, and I think it's funny how people sort of fall into their Fringe patterns, like the people who are like, I always go to Terragon, people who are like, I always go to Factory, who get disappointed the year that it's not actually at Factory, which has happened a couple of times. People are creatures of habit. And it's funny to watch just the automatic like, I'll just see something at Factory. What do you mean there's nothing at Factory? I would love to talk to you about your theatre origin story. I love to know like what brought people to theatre. So for you, do you remember your first exposure to theatre? What made you think you wanted to do it? What made you feel like this is for me?
Chantel Winters: I don't. I actually don't because but I do remember like my I want to study this in post-secondary. I think I was always more like just acting. And, you know, when you do acting, you typically just go into theatre. So I think it was just because of that. But I would say I was more influenced by film and television originally. But then there was a play that came out many, many years ago. I was in high school. It was a doll's house as an adaptation of a doll's house. Mabu Minds, I think it was. And they had all the men were little people and all the women were seemingly like six feet tall. But it was this play that we read. I remember I was like, I just thought it was such a boring play when I read it. But when I saw that production, I got chills. I was like, this is what theatre is. And there's this part where like Nora takes off her wig at the end and they have like a hundred puppets around her. And I'm like, this is amazing. This is like the coolest thing ever. And I think that's when I was like, no, theatre is the way to go. Like, that's that's that's the thing, you know, and I film television stuff.
Phil Rickaby: It is fascinating because I think it is only in theatre that you can do that kind of thing, that you can make that kind of of statement with like the casting or the puppets or things like that because of the way that people in an audience just suspend their disbelief and go with absurdist and just whatever is happening rather than the way that people watch film, which is kind of like, that doesn't look real or that's not realistic. There's something about the people using their imagination in theatre, I think, that frees you a lot.
Chantel Winters: Yeah, I think that's sort of what when I was like, ooh, absurd stuff. And then I got to see, I can't remember the playwright, but they did like some small scenes where his stuff is very strange and it became more like the visual images and I can't remember. But yeah, that that was sort of it. And I was very lucky that I got to spend a summer once in New York and got a lot of discounted theatre tickets and saw War Horse there and A Normal Heart, one of the last productions. And the playwright came out and spoke about writing it. And just I had a lot of really good experiences there. And I was like, I'm going to go to Broadway and I'm going to do this. But then I learned, you know, you have to be a celebrity first and then they'll let you do straight theatre through Broadway.
Phil Rickaby: Sad truth about Broadway right there. But, you know, one of the things that happened to Canada, I think I think it would borrow a bit from from the UK is that people tend to do both. They do theatre and they do film. Did you? I know you kind of mentioned going to post-secondary, where did you go and was film and film acting part of the curriculum?
Chantel Winters: No, I did a year at George Brown and it was in those special years. And I went to, I remember that U of T and I minored there. I minored in theatre there. I just didn't want to do it full time again. And but I did participate in like the theatre productions around. And it was just so much fun. It was like, oh, yes, this is fun again. I remember when like conservatory training can be really like soul sucking. So just getting to like you go to this college and it's like, we're going to put up toilets and crested dust. We're going to do it outside here. We're going to like have 30 people. We're going to raise. Don't worry about it. Like bring your own blanket. Like this is going to be great. We're going to do that. Like it was just it was really just fun. It was like it's almost like when you hear people. I just got my friends together and I like filmed something. That's what sort of doing theatre at U of T was like.
Phil Rickaby: That's pretty cool because, you know, I went through the George Brown program back in the day when it was at River Street. So long before it ever moved to whichever campus and, you know, moved around for a while. But conservatory programs are very difficult because it's so focused. And so many of them have had the attitude of what is it they would say? We need to break you down and then we'll build you back up. And they never get around to the building back up.
Chantel Winters: They've just like, I don't know how to breathe. How do I breathe?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. It's just like, yeah, good. You're panicking. It's good. That's where you need to be. And it's like, no, no, no. You said you're going to there's a second half to this. And it's like graduation. Bye. It's pretty difficult. But, you know, I'm hearing better things from some of the conservatory programs, but I think it's taken a while to get there to sort of slough off some of the, for want of a better word, abuses of some of the programs.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. When I when I was no longer there, I know that the generation after like the two years after that's when the students really started speaking up and there was a lot of change that happened in that program. And so I feel like, wow, so they didn't like just go to a bar and cross their friends.
Phil Rickaby: I think I think we did. I think they probably did that because I think that that period that I think you were there went on for a long time, because I for a long period of time, I would talk to people on this podcast and I'd find out they were George Brown graduates. And I would be like, oh, I went to George Brown. What was your experience like? And they were like, was great. And I could tell, though, it's OK, we're moving on. And then after we would turn off, we turn off the recording. I would hear all of the stories and I was I would just be like, OK, I understand why we're not talking about that, but maybe we should talk about that.
Chantel Winters: Yeah, yeah, no, it was like nothing was like I almost thought like, oh, it's in my head, it was all me. And then there was an article, I guess, that came out that someone sent me who was in my year. And I was like, I remember a lot of these events that she's talking about. I'm like, OK, so it wasn't just me feeling this. This was it was just it was a rough time. I really connected to Whiplash when that movie came out.
Phil Rickaby: I was like, oh, OK. Yeah. All right. I hadn't made the connection that Whiplash that Whiplash was like an could be an allegory for that kind of program and especially that program at that time. But that makes a lot of sense.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or at least my perception of it, I won't say like that's exactly what people did or anything like that, but that's what it felt like, like the the pressure. And I was also working when I shouldn't have been working, but I had to pay to look close enough to the school to be there all day. It was it was a lot.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there are a few people that I spoke to didn't have a problem during that time, but they are in the minority. So none of it seems to be in anyone's heads. I'm curious, you know, we've been talking we talked a little bit about things that happened during the pandemic and you are a black actor in Canada. You've received a Canadian Black Screen Award for you for your work. And I'm curious, just as somebody who works in film and television as a black woman making theatre in Canada, have things gotten better since the pandemic where everybody had their their black squares and things like that? Is that, you know, they're made some promises? Are there are there. Anybody follow through with their promises or or do you think that there's still a lot of work that needs to be done?
Chantel Winters: To be honest, on the theatre side, I don't know because I'm not I I really just do like the community stuff and I will. It's hard to say, like I feel like at one point I was being called constantly to be like played this black role in something, but I'm not being called at all. So I'm like, I'm like, but I'm also union now. So I don't think it's the same thing. I will say on the I sort of entered after Black Lives Matter into the film television stuff. So everything I've seen has been a lot of like open casting, open casting, lots of auditions. We're looking for blacks. So I haven't had I think a lot of the work that they did has benefited me. But I don't know if I would say I don't know if I would say specifically because of black between pre pandemic to now. And it's mostly just because going from nonunion to union, I think was a much bigger transition. But what I am hearing when I do go to the meetings is that there is definitely this feedback. And I think that's across the board in corporate everything. There is like like, you know, stepping away from like DNI policies and stuff because, you know, it's not popular down south anymore and they're pulling back. So a lot of the corporations are following suit. And I think what I'm hearing is even in productions, which are big corporations, a lot of these studios, they're also following suit where it's not as it's not as prominent. And that's what I'm hearing across across the board. Like when I go to the DNI meetings is that, you know, we're still trying to do the work, but we're doing it quieter because it's not it's not the trendy thing anymore.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, because the most important part is that it's trendy.
Chantel Winters: That's what it seems like. I would say for corporate that is good. I mean, sales, right?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Chantel Winters: But then, you know, you have things like thinners that does really, really well. And then they'll be like the door opening. But I hear this just happens all the time. You have this swing back and forth all the time. It's just not consistent funding. Yeah. But I saw a lot of shows in Toronto last year, like black productions went to a lot of blackout nights. Very often. And so I would say I'm still seeing theatre. I'm still seeing a lot of options. More so than when I was younger. Yeah. And in the bigger, bigger companies.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's important. And we should be demanding that of our theatres whenever we can. You kind of mentioned something there about the difference between where union and non-union. For you, what do you feel like is the biggest difference between the two?
Chantel Winters: To be honest, it's the type of roles I'm getting. When I was non-union, and I think it's just, I don't know why, but I just got better roles when I was non-union. Should I say better? I don't know if better is the term, but it's like they're not paying you as much. So maybe they can afford. I don't know why. I really don't. I don't think I've changed so much. I think part of it, though, actually, maybe because I went from non-union to union when we also went from in-person to self-tape. So it's hard for me. Maybe it isn't a non-union to union. Maybe it is like a self-tape, in-person to self-tape, because that has been what I've heard is like you're competing against maybe the 20, 50 people that you go in with versus now you're competing with hundreds of self-tapes. You don't know if they watch them, or maybe they do watch 10 seconds or whatever it is. So that could be more of what I'm feeling. And it's not for like lack of auditions. It's just like fewer bookings, I guess, but more auditions, a lot of burnout. And it was something that I think I was really embarrassed to say, but I love those Gen Zs who are just like online, putting it out, making jokes about it. I'm like, I was so cute. It's like, and you can't be ungrateful ever for an audition, right? But it's like when you're getting so many of them and getting no feedback and that it burns you out. It does.
Phil Rickaby: How can it not? How can you not have a reaction and there could not be consequences for putting all the effort into not only learning it, performing it, however many times it takes to get the take, and then sending it in. And for some people, did I have to push all my furniture across the room in order to get a spot to do this thing? And then to never hear anything back is, it's no wonder that somebody would feel a little burned out from that.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it's, for me, it's slow right now, but I do remember a couple of years ago, it was like four or five auditions a week that you're trying to like learn and it might be this one. It might be this one. So yeah, that was, that was definitely a shift, but I will say I still really like Union because non-union, I felt that they, for lack of a better word, sort of abused my time because they didn't ever have to pay for it.
Phil Rickaby: Of course they, of course they didn't have to, they like, they didn't care how long you were there. Like there were no rules. They were going to keep you there as long as they needed to.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. Or it's like, come in again. Come, come back in. You know, they want to see you. All right. Chris, I'm doing it again. Okay. Come back in again. They just want to see you a third time. Don't worry. And it's like.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. I think to me, one of the things that I think is I love seeing things that are shooting in Toronto. I love seeing things that are shooting in Canada, but I've been complaining a lot online lately about the fact that when I see things that are shot in Canada, especially recently, cause there are a few shows that filmed in Canada previously that, that really utilized Canadian actors as regular cast and like regularly, like people with substantial roles. And now for a lot of the time you are waiter number two, and that's like the role. And it seems like there's been a shift from like casting Canadian talent for what it's worth, which is like super talented people to minor roles. And I think that that's, I think that's a tragedy of these film productions coming here. I don't want to ask you to comment on that because that's not, not fair to do.
Chantel Winters: No, you know what? I used to go in and be like anything that was shot here or anything I auditioned for, I'd be like, okay, which roles were cast Canadian, which ones were not like, especially ones that are auditioned for like, did they cast Canadian? Didn't they? It's just to be like, did I actually have a shot at this? Like, was it a real, and it was a mix. And I don't know if it was because during COVID, maybe it was just, it was probably cheaper as well to have Canadians. I mean, they were spending so much money on testing, retesting, getting backup cast. So I think that that was a good time for us from what I've heard. But now that we don't have that maybe there's that shift back. But again, I haven't been doing it long enough for me to be able to tell the difference, but I do look at that. And I'm like, maybe you just got to get that American representation so you can work here.
Phil Rickaby: Maybe. I've been hearing a lot recently about people who are suggesting that they do the auditions in Canada because they have to. And then they just have already cast an American in their minds, which is enraging. But again, I think it could be worth it. What was I watching? I was watching Star Trek Academy and, or Starfleet Academy. And I was like, are there any Canadians with speaking roles on this that say more than two words? No. Really? It was like all the regular cast were all American. Occasionally I've had somebody on who is Canadian, but like, it was because Star Trek used to be really good for that. They would cast people in Canada.
Chantel Winters: Yeah, what was it? Was it Strange New Worlds or the one with...
Phil Rickaby: Discovery and Strange New Worlds both did cast Canadians and Academy was just like almost entirely American.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. I think one of the things I try to do sort of to counter it in my mind is like, try to engage more with like Canadian films. I've been like Crave right now has like a little thing of like the CSA nominees. So I've been watching some of those films. I watched the 40 acres and that was really good Canadian film. So I've been trying to do that more.
Phil Rickaby: I think there's an opportunity with a lot of people looking at, say, Heated Rivalry, for example, which is, you know, it's all Canadian. And no matter how much the people are like, I would love to see my favorite American person on this show, which is not going to happen because it's shot in Canada. But I think that's an opportunity, right? Like if you could do this here and it could be a hit, like maybe we should try for more shows that are done here that we can travel with. I mean, Letterkenny had some success and the same people sort of went on to do Heated Rivalry. I would love for more shows like that to come from, say, Crave and other stations and go to the States.
Chantel Winters: I have heard that is sort of like there's going to be more investment in that way because of Heated Rivalry, which is great. So maybe it'll be a chance for more talent here. But I mean, a couple of shows isn't going to really like we have, what, 20,000 people in the Toronto Union, Toronto Actor Union?
Phil Rickaby: No, we need more than just a couple of shows. There's a lot more. There's a lot more. As somebody who works in both theatre and film, is there one that is like, this is the one that's closest to my heart? Is there one that you kind of love more?
Chantel Winters: Theatre.
Phil Rickaby: I do. I know what my reasoning for that is, but I'm curious, like, what is it for you that makes theatre the one that you love more?
Chantel Winters: I honestly think it's the simple thing of being able to go straight through. And I like the rehearsal process. I like discovering things in rehearsal and living with it for a while and going through the whole show. Right. You're live with the reactions. You hear it when you're there or you don't hear it when you're there. I do like theatre, but theatre is acting for theatre is way more exhausting. Like I stopped for, I think, five years and then doing the Fringe show, I was like, oh, yeah, rehearsals and regular work and job and regular life. And like, this is really like tiring. I don't know how to greet you before. But that is what I enjoy doing. I wish there was more opportunity and money in it.
Phil Rickaby: I think we all do. I think we all wish there was more opportunities to do it and more theatres to do it in. And a lot of the theatres, they're paring down the shows that they do. So it's hard to find stuff or hard to do stuff.
Chantel Winters: Yep. Yeah, there were definitely more programs before COVID that haven't come back, which is unfortunate.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. And we're losing funding for theatre as well and just the arts in general. But theatres are struggling for the money and that's always going to end up with, you know, smaller casts, smaller shows, that sort of thing. It's a vicious cycle.
Chantel Winters: And Toronto has like a really good grassroots theatre. Like I think we're known, well, at least when I was in New York back in five, six years ago, it's like they're like, you guys have like a lot of like grassroots theatre shows. We have a good, we had a good selection.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Chantel Winters: We still do. But it's just so much less.
Phil Rickaby: There is less. We've lost a bunch of venues, you know?
Chantel Winters: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: And that's always going to hurt, especially if you're like indie producing, there's only so many places you can go that are affordable. Yeah, it's really tough.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. And even those venues, because like I said, I had my chart of all the venues when, and that was a real like push for me to just do the show is that there was like a 30, 40% increase on a lot of rental spaces. And I'm like, this is insane. And I know it's not really the theatre. It's like their rent and what is it even bygone went through their closure and they have like great programs and really cheap rehearsal space for everyone. And so that was really sad to see that go too.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. They were in a really bad spot because their landlord just decided, nope, I want you out. And there's nothing you could do in a commercial space when the landlord decides that.
Chantel Winters: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: We've talked about your writing and your acting. And I'm curious if those things inform each other when you're working on them. Like if you're does does your work as an actor inform when you're writing and vice versa?
Chantel Winters: Does it inform? I think I look for different things. So I don't think so. When I'm acting, I feel like I'm making up more of the backstory and all of that. And I'm like looking for clues in the writing, but I don't know. No, actually, you know what? I think I do put clues. I do put clues in like, they'll be able to figure this out when I write this without like over explaining something. Right. I guess in that way, maybe the acting influences the writing, but I don't know if the writing influences my acting.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. One of the things that I like about being a writer is having an actor take something that I put in the script as a clue and make a choice I never would have thought of. Like, oh, I meant this, but you did that. And it still works somehow. And that's, I think, the thing about being a writer for theatre is that you give it away to people who are then making choices away from you. It's so collaborative in that way that you just sort of end up with like a magic thing that you were involved with, but the end result is your words, but somebody else's choices.
Chantel Winters: Yeah, I think that collaborative spirit, I have it more with theatre, where I'm like, in that you write something and you see someone else do it. And you're like, oh, that works. That actually works. Not what I was thinking, but that works. But I find with film and television, weirdly, I'm a lot more like, no, no, no, no, that's not what I meant. And I'm going to make this super clear that this is how it needs to be, which is different. Everyone's like, maybe you should just direct it. I'm like, no, no, I'm not a director. But I really feel like this is the visual that we need to be.
Phil Rickaby: Do you have a sense of why you feel this different way about the types of writing theatre and film?
Chantel Winters: I think film, it's very much you dictate exactly what the viewer sees. That is all up to you. You can show them whatever you see. Whereas theatre, it's you don't know, right? And there's like this idea of like, who knows what will happen? Maybe the actor might trip one day and that might change a meeting and this might lap and then this changes like, I think I leave more room. I leave more room for certainly like when I'm acting, you don't know what you're going to get back. I think because of that, I have more room in my writing and I don't, I don't really dictate set or staging or things like that, just because I may be working in theatre, you know, that they don't care about. And then the director and the actors will like cross out all that stuff anyway and do what they want. Whereas in film and television, it's like, nope, it says this on this page on this line. So this is what needs to have. They're more strict. Even the format of the script is like so precise. And I think that's why maybe I think of it in that way of like, this is how it needs to go. But I really, I do need to take more of that collaboration and openness onto that side, I think.
Phil Rickaby: But it's hard though, because if they're, if they're, if they are expecting you to write everything down when you're writing for film and like, it has to be described, everything that happens, it's hard to be like, now I'm going to give it to you and you're going to change it when they won't do it. Right. If they're just going to be like, it says here that the shirt is red, therefore, the shirt is red.
Chantel Winters: If the writer put it in for a reason. Yes. Massive. Yeah. Yeah, that is hard. That is hard. And I think that is what it is that I get like hung up on and why I like keep changing it. And I think as well as an actor, because even when you're like doing the auditions, sometimes someone's like, well, they said you're supposed to do like this and you're missing this moment. And like, you know, I'm doing a self-tape and I really can't do all that action. So I'm going to distill it down to this.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because, you know, sometimes when I'm ready, you know, you write something and somebody is like, after it's like, why did you, why was it important that this shirt was red? And you, and in theatre, you're just like, I don't know. It was like, I had to say something. Like I did, it's like I said something and then it's like, oh, there's meaning behind that. And sometimes it's just not.
Chantel Winters: Yeah. Sometimes it's like, this is just visually what I saw. Are you not seeing it? Are you not feeling that visual?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, for sure. Just in closing, I want to talk a little bit more about, and other concerns a little bit more now that it is on CBC Gem and people can watch it like right now. What is the experience of like, like having that be out there been like for you, how has it been? Like you, it went from a play and when now it's on film and now people can just, just watch it. What's, what's that been like for you?
Chantel Winters: It feels like closure in a way, like this is where we've taken it and this is where it's landed and we're handing it over to you now because we, yeah, with the film, it's like, nobody really sees it unless they come to the festival and it's only going to be a couple people. But now it's like, I can actually share this with everyone where before you, you weren't able to, it's like in festivals, like I can't send you the link, but I did this really cool thing with my first time co-producing, but I can't show it to you. You can watch a trailer maybe. So it is nice to be like, it's here. You can watch it. It's available. It's Canadian network, Canadian, very like pro female cast and all of this stuff. And this is all the things that we did. But at the end of the day, this is it. Oh, you didn't get to see the play six years ago. Well, you know what? I think you can get a free CBC Gem account. So it feels like, it feels like the end of a journey. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. And I think it's awesome that people can, can now watch it for free. Like you don't have to pay for the Gem account to get it. You just have to sit through a couple of commercials and I'm kind of used to that. So I think, I think it's great that it's available for people.
Chantel Winters: Me too. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Thank you. Well, Chantel, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for coming on the program.
Chantel Winters: Thanks for having me. This was great. Thank you so much.
Phil Rickaby: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Stageworthy. I'm going to tell you who my guest is next week in just one moment. But first, let me tell you a little bit about my Patreon. I cannot make this show without the people who've chosen to back me on Patreon. Even though a podcast like this is available to you for free, there are costs involved with making a podcast. Things like having a website, editing software, a place to host the audio files so they can be distributed to all of the podcasts, listening places, image editing software, and transcripts, which are hugely important both for people who are deaf and hard of hearing, but also just generally helpful for people to follow along with the conversation. All of those things cost money. And so I am forever grateful to the people who helped me to make this show. And if you would like to do that, if you would like to join them and be a partner in making this show, go to patreon.com/stageworthy and become a patron. Patrons get early access to episodes, we'll have conversations about things that are happening in the theatre scene. And you know what, the more people who join the Patreon, the more I'm able, the more I will be able to offer to my patrons. So if you want to help me part if you want to be part of that and help me to make stage worthy, go to patreon.com/stageworthy and become a patron. My guest next week is Rymn Wadhwa. Rymn is a Toronto based playwright and engineer. This is one of the first conversations I will be having about this year's Toronto Fringe. And Rim's show is called Assembly Suggested. And it's a very unique concept for a show. And I'm really excited to see this show. And I think you'll be excited after you hear the conversation next week on Stageworthy.