WEBVTT 00:00.320 --> 02:17.063 Welcome to the Real Photo Show. My guest Today is photographer J.F. bouchard. J.F. and I are going to talk about his book the New Cubans published by Powerhouse Books, and how he became aware of and how he approached photographing a lesser known subculture in Cuba that consists of younger Cubans who are non conformist and more gender diverse. JF describes his goal towards collaborating in a way in which he is both working for himself, but also in a way working for the people in his photographs by providing them with social media content. During the rise of social media in Cuba. We also talk about how the people he was working with are also migrating away from Cuba, which will lead to his latest work from this project and that is a documentary about the migrant crisis in Cuba and those who are left behind. But before we get to that, this podcast is sponsored by the Charcoal Book Club. Begin building your dream photo book library today@charchbookclub.com and the most recent book of the month is Sealskin by Jeff Dorsky, which is a beautiful book that covers Dorski's life on Penobscot Bay. It also happens to be published by Charcoal Press and it was produced and designed by Jesse Lenz. This book is still available@charcoalbookclub.com both signed and unsigned. I suspect this book will sell out quickly. That's just a hunch. I have also some good news. If you missed the deadline for the Chico 2025 review, the deadline was extended to Dec 1, so visit chicareview.com and click on Apply now. So if you're not familiar with the new Cubans by J.F. bouchard, I think it's one of the most unique bodies of work to be made by a photographer who is a self recognized outsider and we do have a really good conversation about how he tackled those issues and I think it's really informative. So here in the States, this episode is coming out during Thanksgiving week and if you are celebrating with family, I hope it is peaceful and enjoyable. And as always, thank you for listening. Enjoy the show and we will talk soon. Hi JF Bouchard, welcome back from Periphoto. 02:17.159 --> 02:19.703 Hi Michael. And I'm glad to be on the show. 02:19.839 --> 02:27.575 Yeah. So we're going to talk about your book, the New Cubans, which was launched at Periphoto, right? 02:27.615 --> 02:32.719 That is correct. I am still jet lagged from my week in Paris, but it went well. 02:32.847 --> 02:36.879 Why don't we just start there? What was that experience like? Is that the first time you've gone? 02:36.967 --> 03:08.363 No, it is not my first time. But this year, as you might know, Paris photo was back in the Grand Palais, which was absolutely spectacular. It must be the best venue on earth to be hosting a fair. So I think there was a lot of excitement around that. And the place was jam packed for four days. So it was exciting to see so many people in interested in photography. So no, it was a good week. 03:08.459 --> 03:16.935 It's really something. You know, I think, I think half the photo world that I've spoken to on the podcast went, yes, it's true. 03:17.315 --> 03:36.187 And you know, there was of course the fair itself, but a lot of side shows happening and lounge events, group shows, etc. Galleries obviously in Paris showing photography. So there was a lot to do. 03:36.251 --> 03:39.167 Right. And how was the reception to the book? 03:39.311 --> 03:46.031 Well, my French publisher, Henri Frere has a stand there. 03:46.183 --> 03:48.675 I'm so glad you said that before I had to. 03:49.215 --> 04:50.903 So yeah, he's a very dynamic publisher in France. So we launched the book there and did a signing and that went well. And I was also participating in a group show that was put put together by the French photography magazine Fisheye. So they had rented a space of about, I want to say like 500 meters or approximately 5,000 square feet in the Marais area. And they were presenting, I believe, seven artists. So it was almost like a collection of small solo shows. I had maybe eight works presented there. So it was fun. It's always an interesting experience to present with other photographers and meet their own audiences and compare notes, I guess. So it was fun. 04:50.999 --> 05:07.407 That's excellent. And we're going to talk about the book, which was co published with Powerhouse Books. But before we get to that, why don't you introduce yourself to our audience here. For those who may not have picked up on it, you actually do speak French, so you're the perfect person to talk about. 05:07.471 --> 05:18.083 Well, I'm French Canadian. That's it. So I also feel like a bit of a tourist in France, but one who actually speaks the language. 05:18.219 --> 05:24.763 Right. Is there a particular dialect or accent that French Parisianers pick up on when you go there? 05:24.819 --> 05:48.879 Oh, totally. We spend, you know, they recognize our Quebec accent in an average of 2 seconds and then it leads to very lengthy conversations about igloos, Indians. And I'm exaggerating a little bit, but their imagery of what Quebec actually is is sometimes a bit funny. 05:49.007 --> 05:55.791 Yes. All right, well, so go ahead and talk about how you, how you get into all of this, where you grow up, all of that. Yeah. 05:55.863 --> 06:47.225 I grew up in Montreal and as a teenager I developed a passion for photography. But being a very curious and person and a busy buddy type person. I also was dabbling in graphic design. I was interested in the restaurant world. I loved studying law because that's what I was. I knew I would never practice that, but I loved studying it. So I was very confused. But photography was certainly one area that I was dabbling in. More specifically photojournalism. And I was working for student newspapers and learning the craft. I own my own dark room in a closet adjacent to my room. 06:47.605 --> 06:51.149 As many of us did. Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. 06:51.237 --> 06:55.493 My parents being very concerned by the fumes that were coming out of there. 06:55.589 --> 06:59.785 That was our little laundry room for me and the fumes. Yes. 07:01.365 --> 08:49.639 So. But I ended up choosing graphic design and I built a company for clients. Initially local clients and eventually international clients. So I spent the first two decades of my life focused on graphic design. Basically I was in the creative world, but on the commercial side of things. But after about maybe 10 years in this experience, I was missing photography a lot. And that's when I started to go to Cuba for the first time. And what I did is I went there to participate in workshops and learn the craft of photography more. And I did that under the leadership of. He's a pretty well known Cuban photographer. His name is Ernesto Bazan. He's actually Italian, but he spent I think almost two decades in Cuba. He was, he was married to a Cuban woman and also had two kids. I believe he left Cuba maybe, maybe a decade ago. But I went to study under him many times. So that's. That's almost 20 years ago, I think. And that's when I reconnected with my passion for photography and I started developing projects and showing them in exhibition venues. Eventually did a book and photography gradually took over my commercial life and I ended up selling my company to focus 100% on my artistic endeavors. So that's where I'm at now. A full time artist. But it took me a long time to get there. 08:49.727 --> 08:57.021 I don't remember if you had said this when we were getting ready for the show. Did you study graphic design? Was that your major? 08:57.183 --> 09:10.225 No. It seems like everything else that I do in life I'm self taught. So the only thing I studied and never practiced a minute is law. So everything else was self taught? 09:10.385 --> 09:41.135 Yes, law, photojournalism. But then you get into graphic design and then you find your true passion 20 years later. Yeah, no, that's really interesting. Also, I think that law and photojournalism interest is not so far from this book. The new Cubans Because I think there's a bit of social justice in this book and I think there's a. There maybe there was some early influence, your love of law and your interest in photojournalism tied into that. 09:41.435 --> 10:15.971 Well, I would not consider my work to be any form of activism, generally speaking. That said, the interest in human topics has always been what fascinates me. Subcultures. So this started very early on. So when I did photography, even back then, these were the topics that I was pursuing. And I would even write, in some cases, my own articles. I was not just doing the photo part and that's what was of interest to me. 10:16.043 --> 10:30.727 Yeah, no, I don't think the work is overtly activist, including your previous book, in Guns We Trust. So I don't see the work as overtly activist. But I do see. Maybe you said it better that more human condition interest. 10:30.871 --> 10:35.655 Yeah, that's correct. That is really what I love to focus on. 10:35.735 --> 10:44.087 Well, so let's talk about this work. The book is beautiful. It's large and it's printed beautifully, and the colors are beautiful and the work. 10:44.271 --> 10:45.207 Thank you. 10:45.391 --> 11:38.035 It opens with an interview with Matthew Liefit from Mat magazine. And you talk about a bit of the history of getting into this and how you looked at the work of Elliot Erwitt and Susan Mizelis. But then when you looked at the work of Alex Webb and Martin Parr, maybe that opened you up a little bit more that maybe something different, that you could approach the work differently. Because there is a bit of cliche work that has been made in Cuba by many photographers over the years. Not those photographers I just listed, but many of the photographers over the years. It has a little bit of a pilgrimage quality to it. Cuba, I think, for a lot of American photographers, and more specifically. And that work does tend to look a bit cliche. But you. You were very aware of that when you started this project. In fact, I think maybe you thought some of your early work was a little too derivative. 11:38.195 --> 20:02.289 Well, that's it. You know, I made my first photographs in Cuba in the early 90s and then under Ernesto Bazin in his brutal workshops. The man is a workhorse and he's a very fierce critique of the work of his pupils, but in a very good way. But long story short, all this work that I did for so long, I never showed to anyone, basically because it felt like others had done it better or that it was indeed falling in the cliche category. There's a fine line between the two. But one thing was for sure, sure is that it was not bringing anything new to the conversation. So I decided to keep that to myself and consider them to be souvenirs as opposed to artworks. But then in 2016, during a visit, I started noticing something that was changing in Cuba. And the reason for that was that the Internet was now starting to be accessible to Cubans and more specifically, the younger generation. And I could sense the influence of seeing the rest of the world, the influence that that had on the younger generation, and how they were starting to integrate some youth movements from all over the world. And of course, you know, bringing their own sensibilities to that and their own culture. I could sense that something interesting was bubbling. And it really clicked for me when I was invited by a friend who brought me to a drag queen club, which was a bit surprising, of course, under communist rule. My expectation was that such a regime would be very normative and persecute even such lifestyles. But it was quite the opposite. The bar was actually owned by the government, like most businesses in Cuba. And I was fully aware of the fact that in the early 60s, this very same government was incarcerating gay men into what amounted to concentration camps, basically. Eventually, Fidel Castro did apologize for that, but it took him decades to do so. But it showed that an evolution had happened, and I felt interested in that. But I still did not know how to photograph this subject matter. I knew it was of interest, but I still did not know how to do it visually. And also, I should add that in 2016, the access to the Internet was a very cumbersome affair. It meant going into a public park. And actually, Martin Parr documented that in a series. So people would stand in public parks with their computers and phones and access free WI fi in these public spaces. So it was still very limited. A bit like the early days of dial up in America, I suppose. But then in 2019, I was still keeping abreast of this phenomenon. And then I saw a dramatic acceleration of things because the Internet became broadly accessible on smartphones. And then Cubans, and more specifically young Cubans, jumped on social media and Instagram, and for the first time, really saw the world. And it became a source of inspiration for them, also a source of frustration. And I'm sure we're going to talk about migration a little later. So I was following the various subcultures that I discovered when I visited Havana online and more specifically on Instagram. And I was witnessing the richness of these alternative lifestyles. I became convinced that this was a site of Cuba that most people know very little about. And I also thought that it would be relevant to share that with with the world. And of course, as a foreigner, it's always a little tricky to approach a different country and a different culture. And that's why the decision that I made very early on in the project was to collaborate with some folks down in Cuba. And more specifically, I became friends online with Devon Ruiz, who became my main collaborator. And she's a bit of an icon in Havana. She is an artist dabbling in all kinds of things. Also a fashion designer, which is our current focus. She's actually opening a shop in Havana to sell her creations in the coming days. And I sort of saw her as the queen of Havana's underground at some point. So we connected online and she invited me to come for a week to meet some of her friends and visit a few places that she thought would enrich my understanding of the urban culture in Havana. And that's when it really clicked, because one night we were in the home of a man called Tomy Reyes, if my memory is correct. And Tommy, Tommy is probably an 80 year old man now, but he's had a fantastic life leading the Cuban ballet around the world. So he speaks Russian, French, Spanish, obviously, and also English. And he lives in this old central Habana house with the very maximalist decors that we actually see in some of my images. And he has, I think, like four or five Chihuahua dogs always yapping around him. So it's a bit of a crazy house with people coming in and out all the time. It seems like all of his friends are 50 years younger than he is, if not 60. And anyway, so Devon invites me there because a friend of hers, Ismael, was actually shooting a music video, and he was a director of a music video. So I walk into this house and then I've got this traditional Cuba in this colonial house, contrasting with the crowd that was there. Basically young folks that could have been plucked out of Berlin or Tokyo or Los Angeles. And the contrast was so vivid that I started making some images. And since the lighting there was already in place for that music video, the aesthetics that I ended up developing in the book were set in this very fortress way. I love working in low light. That's been the case for most of my past projects. But in this specific case, this whole cinematic approach derived in part from that and in part from my influences and inspirations. But that's when it clicked. So at that moment I took the picture of Felix and Cathy, which has become an image that is a bit iconic for this Project where Cathy is smoking a cigar. It's probably the only picture with a cigar because I tried to stay clear of the Cuban cliches. But at the same time, they do smoke cigars. It will pop up sometimes. 20:02.337 --> 20:08.169 You know, some of the iconography of cliche is actually true, right? Yeah. 20:08.297 --> 20:45.269 Well, it's something that they will. They will do occasionally, even the younger folks in Cuba. But I've never seen it done in New York City or Montreal with younger folks. But anyway, so that's how it clicked. And then I knew that this way of representing in a very modern way the young culture there, but also acknowledging that their mindset is so disconnected at this point from the traditional values of the Cuban revolution that became the essence of the project. 20:45.397 --> 21:18.841 So let's go get back a little bit to that tableau cinematic style that you have in the book. It is very cinematically lit. It has a real richness to it because of the subdued lighting. And then the more sort of spotlit areas of the photo, the people are spotlit, parts of the walls and other areas, windows that are contrasted against darker outdoor sort of settings. So it is incredibly cinematic. And I know you have mentioned Gregory Crutzen as an influence in your work and maybe Jeff Wall as an influence. 21:18.913 --> 22:55.771 Yes, that's correct. But it's a bit strange because my influences are almost at the two very extremes of the photographic spectrum. So on the one hand I'm in awe in front of the work of great photojournalists such as James Naqui, which is a hero of mine. So people who capture fleeting moments and at one end of the spectrum, and then on the other end, the creators of very complex fictions I find equally interesting. And I could not choose between the two camps. So I ended up working not just for this project, but for other projects in the past. I'm trying to create an intersection between these two extremes. So I work very fast with. With very limited equipment and sometimes I know some of my images look like I had a 10 people cinema crew, but no, it's not this project. The last project I did with a flashlight that I bought in a dollar store and a lot of photographers were asking me about my lighting equipment. That's right, that was my answer. But no, this time I'm working with strobes sometimes and you know, a few light panels, but it's very light. I basically use the equipment that a wedding photographer would use. I know that sounds terrible to. 22:55.923 --> 22:58.259 No, not at all. My students will love to hear that. 22:58.307 --> 22:59.227 That's how I work. 22:59.291 --> 23:02.763 Yeah, no there's nothing to do at all. Yeah, yeah. 23:02.859 --> 24:21.091 If it doesn't fit in a carry on, then it's too much equipment for me. That said, I do need to be assisted because, you know, very often I don't even have stands. So I do need an assistant to hold a little octa strobe or something. But the way I like to work is to use the ambient light as much as I can. And then I add usually one source of light that I control very well, not to blast the whole thing. That's how I approached this project. Another thing that should be mentioned is that I like things to happen. And maybe that's because of my photojournalism influences, but I like things to happen really fast. So usually I make my photographs in a matter of maybe 5 to 15 minutes stops. If it doesn't work after 15 minutes, I just move on. Because I belong to the school of portraiture photographers who believe in the first minutes. And I know others do the exact opposite. They will nourish a conversation, a relationship, and then they believe that the true. The best work comes later. 24:21.243 --> 24:23.099 Essence of someone. Yeah, right, Right. 24:23.147 --> 24:41.327 Yeah. I even know people who. When we were using film. Well, when I was using film. I know, of course, a lot of people still do, but who would pretend to be shooting and not filming any photos just to warm up their subjects. I love to do the opposite. I like the very first instance. 24:41.471 --> 24:41.863 Yeah. 24:41.919 --> 24:52.359 If something is off, like the lighting or if it feels too. Yeah. I just move on. I stop and then we. We try something else. So that's how I did this project. 24:52.447 --> 25:11.665 So let's talk about then, the directing, the sort of somewhat stylized look that people have. I think there's a. In some of the photos, it feels a little crossover with fashion world, kind of posing and styling. And others, it's much more that tableau, cinematic style. Where does that all come from in terms of how much directing you're doing? 25:11.785 --> 27:07.423 Well, a lot of people ask me to what extent the images are staged, and it's not easy to answer this question because the answer is that they're not staged. They're a little staged. And it also depends from one image to the next. So the first thing that should be known is that people decided how they would be represented. They choose their clothes, they decided if they would wear makeup or not. So I did not do any styling per se. Sometimes they brought more than one outfit and would ask my opinion, but that's pretty much the extent of it. The other thing that is important to know is that the decors are exactly as is. So some people believe that we created sets, but this is completely false. We sometimes move the chair that might be awkward in the composition, but 99% of it was exactly as is. But also, of course, it is a bit staged because they pose for me, and sometimes they really wanted to get instructions as to what to do. And in other instances they really decided, because you have to understand that this whole project started for me on Instagram. And my thinking was that it also needed to end on Instagram. Meaning that if my collaborators were comfortable sharing and excited at sharing the images on Instagram, then the project will have gone full circle. So they were very aware of that because all of them, without us even discussing it, all wanted to look good on Instagram when they would have an opportunity to share. 27:07.479 --> 27:19.479 So even while you're making the work, you're actually thinking about the final stages in terms of how the work is going to be seen, and you're actually thinking about it as a collaboration with people who might want to share the work. 27:19.647 --> 28:15.543 That is exactly what was my thinking. It was certainly their thinking because they didn't care about whether or not I would be doing an exhibition when they were with us. What they cared about was really about how they represent themselves on Instagram. So I made this a part of the project. So, for example, there's a young woman who kept taking selfies as I was trying to make a photograph of her. And at some point I just thought, well, I guess that's going to be the photograph. And it's actually part of the show where we see her not looking at me, but looking at the screen of her phone. And that's perfectly okay. So, yes, it was a mix of. Of certainly staging the representation of these people, but they would participate in that staging. It's also very close to who they are. 28:15.639 --> 28:18.439 Right? They're making a lot of decisions in front of you. 28:18.567 --> 28:48.619 Yeah, yeah. And all the participants, ultimately in the project, and also, you know, my gallery in Havana and the art critic who wrote the essay in the book, you're Gay, they all thought that this was an interesting representation of Cuban ute culture. So I'm proud that the artistic community down there saw my work as being. 28:48.667 --> 29:47.043 Relevant and they embraced it for their own uses as well. You know, Matthew Liefeit writes that you were reinforcing their own self presentation. And we will get to the essay at the end by Jorge Pere. But just as a preview of that essay, what I appreciate about it is, is there's a more stark, a more Stark kind of description about Havana in Cuba that talks about the positive nature of this culture, but also what kind of what they're up against historically. But before we get to that, you know, you mentioned that these were real people's homes. These were not propped up stages or anything like that. And in the middle of the book, you actually have this section called Eternally still where there are these still lifes of family heirlooms, ornaments, or objects with familial or historical significance. And they're done in a very personal way. Can you describe that part of the book? 29:47.219 --> 32:19.491 Yes, absolutely. We visited so many homes over the course of this project. And one thing that I should mention is that where I took some liberty and what could be considered to be partly staged is that very often we would choose locations and create the contrast between the participants and the decor they're in. Sometimes they're in their home or their parents home or friend's home. But in some cases, someone would say, hey, you know, my cousin has this crazy kitchen. Because they understood the contrast that was being created and they were fully aware of that. So that's where we took some liberty. But anyway, in the process of photographing in so many homes, I started asking questions about all these objects and heirlooms and knickknacks that were creating these very maximalist decors. So family started to explain how the objects that could be considered by many as having no value whatsoever do have a sentimental value. And also the fact that most shelves in stores are half empty. It's not like it's the best place to shop for decorative items, to say the least. So people tend to keep things that we would possibly discard in other parts of the world. And then a family said, well, this vase was from our grandmother and we love it. Can you take a picture of it? And I thought it was a bit strange. And I'm not a photographer of still life and objects, but of course I said yes to be nice. And I thought that this would be yet another thing that would end up on Instagram, but I wanted to do it well. So I said, well, can you find a backdrop for this? And, you know, being a photographer, I was expecting a black backdrop or maybe a white backdrop. And it was a vase with plastic flowers, very colorful plastic flowers. And then they choose a piece of fabric that is like very colorful printed flowers as the backdrop. So now you have a vase with flowers on flowery backdrop. It was a bit insane. 32:19.643 --> 32:20.307 Very busy. 32:20.371 --> 32:54.533 Yes, it looked extremely well. Yeah, so. And it was fun to do because the Mother was holding one side of the backdrop. We did not even have the proper equipment to do this. And then the father was holding the other side. My assistant was holding a small strobe. And it was so much fun that I started doing this in all the homes I visited from that point on. So it created that series of still life objects. And. And in my exhibition in Montreal, right now, it's actually a separate room. 32:54.629 --> 32:55.425 Oh, wow. 32:55.885 --> 33:08.245 With smaller works that are beautifully framed. So a bit like I did in the book, I separated it Right. This part of the show. So it was a lot of fun doing that. 33:08.325 --> 33:13.301 Yeah. And, you know, my favorite is the Madonna on the Spider Man, I think. Blanket. 33:13.333 --> 33:13.621 Yeah. 33:13.693 --> 33:37.661 Yeah. But what it does is it creates, like, an extension of the portrait. It's a portrait of someone's life in the middle of the book. And it feels very sort of honest and personal, the fact that they've chose everything. You know, they chose the object, they chose the backdrop. So it's a continuation of this reinforcing the self presentation. 33:37.733 --> 34:09.385 Yeah. My Cuban friends, they love that series because their whole lives they've seen, you know, thousands of objects like this. And they were telling me, of all the things Cuban, it's the first time we see this one used in art. I'm sure it's not the case, but, I mean, they find it both completely surprising and at the same time, very, very common and something that they relate to, very connected to. 34:09.685 --> 34:10.425 Right. 34:10.725 --> 34:12.527 They think it's interesting. 34:12.661 --> 34:51.527 So let's talk about that essay, Portrait of a Generation by Jorge Pere. You know, in it, when he's talking about a kind of visibility and emergence and hopefulness with this youth culture, at the same time reminding everyone the layers and layers of political and cultural shifts that have happened in Cuba and the turmoil and the trauma that came with that. The whole essay goes back and forth between a kind of sadness and optimism. And that is something that you experienced as well. Well, while you were making the work, because there was this exodus that was happening with some of the people you were photographing. 34:51.631 --> 35:33.369 Well, Cuba has experienced a few migration crises, most notably one in the 80s and then one in the 90s. But what is happening right now is just off the charts. But of course, when I started the project, this was not yet the case. It really accelerated almost as I started the project and I started seeing younger folks, and Cubans in general, leave the island at an alarming pace. To put things in perspective, since I started the project two years ago, it is estimated that between 10 and 20% of Cubans have left the island. 35:33.457 --> 35:33.801 Wow. 35:33.873 --> 35:57.789 This is insane. That's 1 to 2 million people. And of course, a lot of them are younger folks from urban centers such as Havana. So of all the people that I collaborated with, and I mean participants, people I photographed, my estimation right now is that at least a quarter I've left the island and it might be a third. 35:57.917 --> 35:58.389 Wow. 35:58.477 --> 38:31.725 So it became a bit of a race against the clock even, because there were friends of friends that I wanted to photograph. And then by the time I was ready or I was back, they were gone. Gone. And I started seeing my collaborators and friends there, losing friends and family members. And then I realized that some of the images that had made, you know, sometimes six months prior, were becoming almost like mementos or souvenirs of bygone friendships and lost loves and disintegrated families. So the whole thing acquired a bit of a different flavor as I was doing this. And I now see, because I'm still in touch with a lot of the people who participated who are now all over the world. And when they see the images now, sometimes like two years after the photograph was taken, sometimes they even had forgotten about it, it acquires a bit of an emotional charge that. That I was not anticipating. So it became a big part of my work down there to sort of immortalize some fabrics of youth culture that I felt were disintegrating. And ultimately I decided to do a short documentary specifically on that. So I will be presenting in the coming months in various film festivals around the world, a documentary that's. That's focused on migration. But more, there's been a lot of work done on. On that topic in the documentary world. But my focus is a bit more specific. I'm actually interested in the impact of migration on people who have not yet migrated or who do not want to migrate. To give an example, there's. There's one man that I photographed who came to Havana from the countryside with four friends. Friends. And the four friends were the four human beings that he knew in Havana. And a year later they were all gone, and he's by himself. So he was explaining to us that migrating was not something that was an objective for him. But he said, now I don't know anybody, so if I want to stay close to my friends, I have to go. It's very dramatic, what is happening. 38:31.805 --> 38:36.757 This will be still photo and video and interviews. And what's the form of this documentary? 38:36.901 --> 39:01.501 It's a 20 minute short film documentary, and it's a mix of interviews with some of the participants but we also follow them in their respective lives, and we discover gradually what they have in common. And it's really about the impact of migration on them, on those who stayed. 39:01.533 --> 39:02.797 Behind and now have to consider. 39:02.901 --> 39:03.461 Exactly. 39:03.533 --> 39:03.861 Right. 39:03.933 --> 39:17.565 Well, actually, the movie is called the Rio Guard la Retaguardia in Spanish, and it's an apt descriptive of who they are and what they're experiencing. 39:17.645 --> 39:36.713 Yeah. Just to close out the book and also to connect it to that idea of immortalizing people's lives. There is small profiles at the end of the book called Lives in Flux, where you profile some of their. The collaborators that you worked with. Did that lead to the idea of the documentary? That idea of profiling people's lives? 39:36.849 --> 40:37.035 No, no, it was. The documentary was really. The starting point, was really what we were observing in terms of migration. But I felt it was important throughout the project because, again, I wanted to close the loop. And a lot of these people through Instagram, I knew the project would go full circle there. My only rule was for. Because people, sometimes they wanted to see images of the work we had done together, and I didn't mind sharing it with them, but I told them, don't put it on Instagram before I do, and it might take years, so be patient. And they all respected that. But when knowing that I would eventually share that, I wanted to have a little profile of all the people I would eventually show a photograph of. So I collected these little stories as I did the projects. I think I collected some three or four hundred of them. 40:37.115 --> 40:38.531 Oh, wow. A lot. 40:38.723 --> 41:21.703 Yes. But in the book I chose to share, maybe there's probably 30 or something like this of people that I photographed many times or people I ended up collaborating closely with. Just yesterday, I was posting about Asmael Hakuz, who turned into my photo assistant throughout this project. But he actually, he did more than technical work. You know, we made decisions together. He had ideas. Of course, he knew a bunch of people. So a lot of the people in the photographs are actually acquaintances of his or friends. Same thing for Devon, obviously. 41:21.879 --> 41:27.319 You said it would be. This documentary will be seen in some film festivals. When will that start? 41:27.487 --> 41:32.727 We're actually starting the submission process, so now it's a function of being selected. 41:32.911 --> 41:34.515 Oh, I didn't realize it was that long. 41:35.215 --> 41:38.951 Oh, yeah, yeah. We submitted to Sundance three weeks ago, I think. 41:38.983 --> 41:39.999 Oh, that's incredible. 41:40.127 --> 41:51.429 Yeah, but it's much easier to submit than to be selected. Of course, we'll see how it unfolds, but I'm confident that it will be seen. 41:51.517 --> 41:57.573 Well, that's fantastic. And thank you so much for taking some time. I know you must be pretty exhausted right now. 41:57.669 --> 42:25.223 I am and still jet lagged. And later today we're launching the book here in New York City. I've been invited by a Puritan Gallery. They have an amazing bookstore so we will be launching there in a few hours actually with Parao's Book books and they will also show six works. They call this an artist spotlight. So I'm super happy to participate. 42:25.319 --> 42:25.823 That's great. 42:25.879 --> 42:26.935 In their program. 42:27.095 --> 42:31.635 Yeah. So of course by the time this comes out that will be over. So hopefully it went really well. 42:32.575 --> 42:34.303 Hopefully, yes. 42:34.479 --> 42:37.535 Well, thank you again, this has been fantastic and welcome back. 42:37.615 --> 42:38.751 Thank you so much, Michael. 42:38.863 --> 42:40.263 All right, bye everyone. 42:40.399 --> 42:41.235 Thank you. 42:45.685 --> 42:56.805 Real photo show is produced by me, Michael Chovendalton. Music by Matteo Chovendalton and Jim Raimundo. If you like the show, please rate and review with all the stars on your listening platform.