WEBVTT 00:05.836 --> 00:37.813 Hello, I'm John Waters, and I'm supposed to announce there is no smoking in this theater, which I think is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of in my life. How can anyone sit through a length of a film, especially a European film, and not have a cigarette? But don't you wish you had one right now? Mmm, mm-mm-mm. And I'm telling you, smoke anyway. It gives ushers jobs, And if people didn't smoke, there would be no employment for the youth of today. So once again, no smoking in this theater. 00:37.813 --> 01:12.085 Thank you very, very much for listening to Try Love. This is a literal roundtable podcast where we talk about movies we saw and/or people we met at or through the Trylon Cinema in Minneapolis, Minnesota. You can find us on Twitter, Bluesky, and Instagram at Try Love Podcast. You can find the Trylon at trylon.org and at Trylon Cinema on Instagram, I believe. My name is Jason Daphnis. I don't need a virus to crawl around on my hands and knees like a cockroach. And you can find me on Twitter, Bluesky, Letterboxd, Instagram, pretty much anywhere at Nintendufus. 01:12.085 --> 01:19.202 I'm Harry Mackin, and you can find me inside the cardboard fort that I've created for myself in my apartment. 01:19.202 --> 01:27.726 And my name is Aaron. I hate water. It's wet and cold and irritating, and it gets everywhere. You can find me on Bluesky at RBPlease. 01:30.230 --> 02:21.563 Cody took a full spray of bug spray directly to his face today. I don't know where that came from. He's out of commission. He's out of commission for the rest of the day, but you can find him and wish him well wishes on Instagram and— or sorry, let's just direct him to the Blue Sky and Letterboxd for now, @codynarvison. And you can get all the sort of cool things that you might want to do relating to the Trylon at trylon.org, including get tickets to movies like this one that we're going to be talking about today. There is no series that I could find associated with today's movie, but it did play on 35mm. A lot of formats that they play at the Tryline, a lot of great series coming up. Keep an eye tuned to their website and to our social media for anything that's coming up that you might want to join for. And get in touch with us if there's a movie that seems cool. We have a good roster of guests, but we're always looking to add new voices. So please do reach out. I want to ask right off the top because we always keep forgetting it and because Letterboxd is actually working this week. Harry, what'd you watch this week? 02:21.563 --> 02:59.620 Oh, well, thank you, Jason. Let's see, I watched 9 movies last— this last week. Saw The Samurai and the Prisoner at Lincoln Center with a friend of the pod, Seth. Terribly disappointing movie. We've talked about it a little bit. I think it's kind of boring. But, you know, Kiyoshi Kurosawa, you can't hit them all. And he also made Cloud recently, and that's a very good movie. So watched Lincoln on my flight here. I'm in, I'm in town this week. Lincoln is a masterpiece. It's really, really amazing. Tommy Lee Jones in that movie is doing like the hypest performance ever given by a person on screen. 02:59.620 --> 03:01.020 I think— I didn't even know he was in it. Who is he? 03:02.364 --> 03:39.269 He is— he's just one of the, the, like, Republicans voting for the 13th Amendment to abolish slavery. And he's very pro abolishing slavery for reasons that become clear in his final scene. No spoilers. But— and he basically, like, he's in front of the House of Representatives, just like absolutely, like, snarkily holding court. And he gets like— these incredible lines. You should see it. It's, it's an amazing movie. Um, turns out I watched, uh, Panther Panchali, um, this week for the first time. That's one of the best movies I've ever seen in my life. 03:39.269 --> 03:49.877 I'm really looking forward— it was part of my goals for 2026, if you remember, to watch like more international cinema starting with Panther Panchali. Did not get around to it yet, so I'm a few months behind, but I'm glad to hear that it bears out. 03:49.877 --> 04:28.720 Really can't recommend that highly enough. Um, unbelievable movie. In like 100 different ways. I can't wait to rewatch it. Gotta watch the other 2 in the trilogy soon. I watched Jane Eyre, the 2011 version with Cary Fukunaga, who sucks, but he did a good job with that. That's a very good adaptation of that story. Unfortunately, it's very like goth. It's very like ghost story-y, which I think suits the themes really well in a cool way. So that was fun to watch. Watched The Holdovers, which I had never seen. Oh, I forgot. also saw Tony. I forgot to put Tony on this list. 04:28.720 --> 04:29.586 Oh, cool. 04:29.747 --> 04:31.095 Was that an early screening or was it— It is. 04:31.191 --> 06:22.402 Yeah, it's a— it's not wide yet, but they were showing it at the Alamo Drafthouse. They didn't have oysters or any sort of seafood, which I was disappointed by, but also probably not the best idea to order oysters at the Alamo Drafthouse. So there's that. It was— it was good. It has a little bit of the biopic thing, a biopic thing, uh, going against it. But, um, I liked it anyway. Um, let's see, I— we saw— Jason and I both saw Operation Avalanche, another Matt Johnson movie, for Kelly Krantz, friend of the pod's, uh, birthday. She, um, uh, rented the Trilon. That was extremely fun. That movie plays really well with a crowd. I, I had a really great time watching it. Um, good pick, Kelly. Then I watched Mean Streets, the Martin Scorsese movie. Absolutely incredible that like that's his— I think it's technically his third feature, but it's kind of his breakout in a lot of ways. And it literally opens with like a black screen and then a mobster character being like, you know, the Catholic Church doesn't punish me well enough for my sins. So I have to find new additional ways to punish myself. It's just like, all right, Marty, like you really knew what you were about from From the jump there. That's an amazing movie though. Really good. De Niro gives a great performance that is very different from his screen persona later in his career. And then I also watched Cape Fear last night, the Scorsese remake, which is also very good and very, very trashy. It's like so clearly Martin Scorsese being like, I really like Brian De Palma movies. I want to try to make one of those. And he like remakes a classic movie to do that. Works out really well, in my opinion. De Niro gives another great performance in that movie. So yeah, that's what I watched this week. Aaron, what did you watch this week? 06:22.402 --> 06:33.052 I watched Terminator 1 and Terminator 2 with my wife. That's fucking dope. Who she was a little confused. Like she's like, I think I've seen Terminator 1. 06:33.052 --> 06:36.888 She was a little confused. She was like, why didn't he die when he got shot? 06:37.990 --> 07:03.021 It's a, what's going on with this? I think she enjoyed both those. I think she's not the biggest movie person, but I think she liked them. I had seen Terminator 1 a lot recently. And then I've seen Terminator 2 a few times, but it's probably been over a decade. So it was nice to revisit that one. I think I am sort of like gun to my head, which one I prefer more. I don't know if I could tell you. I think Terminator 2 is like— 07:03.021 --> 07:03.262 Really? 07:03.262 --> 07:07.840 Maybe the better movie, but I think I also prefer I prefer sort of the straightforward nature. 07:07.840 --> 07:14.260 The vibes of 1 are cool, you know? I mean, yeah, it's a bit more of like an '80s soundtrack. Yeah, for sure. 07:14.260 --> 07:23.940 I fall on the side of 1 where it is the straight ahead, the straightforward. It is a very simple premise. And then 2 adds a lot of lore, and I get that that's cool in its own way, but just personal preference, easily 1. 07:23.940 --> 07:25.520 And the action in 2 is better. 07:25.520 --> 07:34.460 Like, yeah, I think that Arnold's performance in 2 is like kind of quietly one of the greatest screen performances ever, and I really, really love that. 07:34.460 --> 07:35.920 I think Linda Hamilton really like— 07:35.920 --> 07:35.960 she's undeniable. 07:35.960 --> 07:43.449 She is She is like a whole nother person in the second film in a way that is, I think, extremely impressive. 07:43.593 --> 07:49.359 You know, Terminator 1 is a better '70s movie. Terminator 2 is the '80s movie. I'll just put this to bed. 07:49.359 --> 07:51.222 Terminator 1 was an '80s movie. 07:51.303 --> 07:53.294 Terminator 2 is a '90s movie. 07:53.294 --> 08:03.669 But Terminator 1, Terminator 1, even though it came out in the '80s, is a better '70s movie than Terminator 2 is, which is in its heart a better '80s movie than a '90s movie. See, you're on my level now. 08:03.830 --> 08:08.568 Okay. All right, this is the kind of insightful analysis you get when you tune into the Trilo Podcast. 08:08.568 --> 08:10.495 When Cody's not here, we just say this shit. 08:10.495 --> 08:47.750 The other thing I'll say is that it was nice to watch the twist in Terminator 2 work on someone who didn't know that it was coming because they had no perception of what that movie is. That it's, it's kind of hard to remember that, like, it does sort of work if you're just watching those movies without— like, I got the same experience in college watching someone who, an international student, who had never seen Star Wars watch the original trilogy and like, oh yeah, there are people out there that like aren't, aren't familiar with like Darth Vader being Luke's dad and all that. Nice. It's kind of nice to, to watch that with other people. So that's what I got around to this week. 08:47.750 --> 09:25.916 Nice. I— there's gonna be some overlap between what Harry and I watched. The Samurai and the Prisoner, different screening, different showing. I saw it with Cody and her friend Tony Wagner, former guest of the podcast. Also a pretty disappointing movie. I was not as high up on Cloud as some of the rest of the crew is, though I think on rewatch it would probably bear out and fare better. Samurai and the Prisoner. I think it was, it was mostly, um, a victim of my expectations. I sort of thought like, oh cool, a samurai jidaigeki, like mystery movie, historically inspired historical fiction type thing directed by a guy whose movies I've either really liked or just kind of liked. And boy, it doesn't really meet any of those. I think it's maybe like 35 minutes too long. 09:25.916 --> 09:34.647 I was similar in that I was like, this should be the best movie I've ever seen, right? Like, it sounds like it should be my favorite movie, and then it's kind of boring. 09:34.647 --> 10:09.036 It gets— and not even to maybe a particularly good point. Anyway, I'll let the viewer decide, but I was not jazzed on it. Glad to see it, glad to like form my own opinion on that one, but I don't think it's a rewatchable, beautiful experience of film like so much of his filmography has been so far. Immediately following that, the following day, I saw The Natural, the Robert Redford movie, which is a fun, fine movie, I guess. I see how it was influential on baseball cinema, on a lot of sports cinema in 1984. It's— it has just a lot of these bizarre— have both of you seen this movie, The Natural? 10:09.036 --> 10:10.880 No, I've never seen it. 10:10.880 --> 11:19.962 There are just some real left-turn plot moments that just happen in almost a comedic way. You know, when you're watching like a clip of a movie online, it's like, you'll never believe where the— what happens next kind of thing. That happens like 3 times in the course of this movie. And it doesn't really like earn or let go of any of those things. Just it's in a weird way, it like integrates them into the plot and then they become important in the background of everything. It's so strange. But, you know, it's— it's '80s cinema. like, you know, very family— largely family-friendly, uh, very watchable. Um, so not an unpleasant experience, especially among friends, as Cody and I did. Uh, watched Operation Avalanche again. Again, like, I, I continue to be impressed and pleased with a whole lot of what Matt Johnson puts out. And just talking about it after the fact and chatting about like, how the hell did they do X, Y, and Z things in this movie? I don't know how like one guy— I know it's not just one guy, but Matt Johnson is the figurehead, uh, and face of a lot of this, what he's done in his career. I don't know how you make that many movies that each of who— each of which has their own different, like, how did they do that moment consistently? Like, it's— there's like his, uh, his signature, his calling card is just in doing something you cannot explain unless you were on set. It's absolutely fascinating. 11:19.962 --> 11:23.010 Yeah, does it really make sense that he's not either in jail or dead? 11:23.010 --> 11:25.480 That's a very good way to say it. 11:25.528 --> 11:25.913 It's great. 11:26.395 --> 12:21.670 It's impossible. Uh, The Odyssey I rewatched, I bumped it up a half star, so I believe that's a 5-star film in my opinion. I, I really do like I continue to be deeply affected by that movie. Very— I saw it at the biggest IMAX in the state now that they're— now that the one at the zoo here in Minnesota is closed. It's IMAGINE Lakeville, just for the listeners' edification. And I was maybe 5 or 6 rows back, just in the perfect spot to be like seeing it and visible, but not like the memes of people's jaws being— Not in the back of the theater? Not in the back of the theater this time. I didn't buy the tickets. Our— my mutual friend with my wife did. Well, I mean, it wasn't unpleasant, honestly. There was enough space around. I would only go to a movie like that in that format, but it was definitely worth it. Absolutely like a different experience to see it in that large and that high definition, that sound and stuff. All of the cowards around me plugged their ears during many points, including my wife and our friend. And I'm like, this is— I'm raw-dogging it. We're opening it. 12:21.670 --> 12:21.974 Loud film. 12:21.974 --> 12:51.964 It is a loud-ass film. And like the first time I saw it was at the Heights in 70mm, and only the Polyphemus when he's getting his eyes stabbed, only that scene was like almost unbearably loud. Almost every scene in the IMAX version when you're that close is like Ear-splittingly loud, but it's part of the experience. IMO, IMAX. I saw Manhunter last night again at the Heights. I hate to be like on a run of like I put 5 stars to several movies on Letterboxd this week, and that's another one. Manhunter is just such a fucking good movie. It made— 12:51.964 --> 12:53.518 Guy who enjoys stuff too much. 12:53.518 --> 13:18.315 Unfortunately, what is it? The fandom enjoyer or whatever. Yeah. I was really, really pleased by that. I didn't really know what to expect except that like I've already consumed a bunch of the Thomas Harris, uh, you know, Hannibal Lecter, Red Dragon media. I haven't read the books, but— and then I've seen, of course, a lot of Michael Mann movies as part of this podcast, and I found my ups and downs with him and what I like and what I don't. And this just hits on all cylinders, man, the whole fucking time. It's so good. 13:18.315 --> 13:19.629 Yeah, it's fucking masterpiece. 13:19.629 --> 13:58.198 There's a new— we ended up seeing the 4K remaster of the final cut, quote unquote, which has that fun thing where, like, clearly there was some footage they were able to restore better than others. So there's, like, slices of his meeting, his first meeting with, uh, Dr. Lecter, that are, like, clearly from lower quality, or maybe could— they couldn't restore as much. They're just like a little crispier, a little more grainy, but just plopped into the middle of like a beautiful, crisp, very modern-looking film stock scene. Really, really, really good stuff. Highly recommend if you can get your hands on a ticket to the 4K, like the current run of where it's at in the theater. Harry, you're in a bigger market up there in New York, so maybe you'll be able to find somebody showing it, but it's absolutely fantastic. 13:58.198 --> 14:12.225 Yeah, IFC's been showing that new printing for a long time now, and I think they're going to continue to. I honestly, I've seen Manhunter so many times that I wasn't like rushing out, but after hearing your experience with it, I might, I might anyway. 14:12.225 --> 14:50.390 And, you know, it's the classic thing of going to Letterboxd when you're done and seeing what your friends have thought. And, you know, I'll passively like a Letterboxd review if it's like, I haven't seen this movie, but I enjoy the review and enjoy what they had to say about it. Um, and this was like, I had to go find what everybody in my mutuals said about it, and I'm just digging through reviews. Just makes it— makes you love a good story. You know, that's what Manhunter does. And then I watched the movie we're going to be talking about today, which is not what I do on this podcast. I don't say the name of that movie. Our friend Aaron is the one who does that. Thank you all for filling me in, edifying us all on what you watched this week. But we have to move on to our next segment, which we call the patented Aaron Grossman summary to discuss today's film. It's going to start like this. 14:50.390 --> 14:51.700 Absolutely dogshit. 14:51.700 --> 14:54.540 I'm just going to— should I just remove that one? Because I always do it wrong. 14:54.540 --> 14:55.210 Yes, indeed, folks. 14:55.210 --> 14:56.540 There we go. That's how it's supposed to be. 14:56.540 --> 15:01.720 I've always disliked it because you're leading too much. You know, you can't— you're influencing, you know, the— 15:01.720 --> 15:05.838 How about you give me a clean read on like It's a movie rather than like a positive or negative. 15:05.838 --> 15:08.290 It's all right. Okay, it's okay, folks. 15:08.290 --> 15:09.941 Yeah, I'll cut one of those. 15:09.941 --> 17:00.866 We are talking about The Hole, 1988 film directed by Tsai Ming-Liang. The film stars Yang Kui-mei as the woman downstairs and Li Kang-sheng as the man upstairs. Maybe has a name, we'll get to it maybe later on in the episode. The story takes place in Taiwan where a strange new disease which causes people to you know, crawl around like cockroaches, hide in dark areas. That disease has caused most of the residents to evacuate the, you know, area. Despite this, the residents of kind of an older apartment building stay put and deal with, you know, the issue however they can, deal with the crushing isolation however they can. The man upstairs runs an infrequently visited food store, and when a plumber drills this hole down into the apartment of the woman below him. The man upstairs and the woman downstairs first begin to sort of, you know, resent the presence of each other before eventually building a connection. The film was created as a part of the 2000 Seen By film project, in which the French company that I'm going to mispronounce here, Haute et Courte, maybe, produced films by promising, some up-and-coming, some more established directors. that attempted to tackle the upcoming turn of the millennium. The Hole is one of the more notable films from the project, maybe right behind Don McKellar's film Last Night, which was quite critically acclaimed and is well known still. The film is also notable for including the music of Grace Chang at many different moments. You could argue it's a musical, maybe. We'll see. The Hole was nominated for the Palme d'Or and won the FIPRESCI, maybe, prize at the Cannes Film Festival. That's what I got. Take it anywhere you want to go, Jason. 17:00.866 --> 17:02.022 Excellent summary. 17:02.022 --> 17:03.515 Or Harry. Thank you. 17:03.515 --> 17:05.168 I got to give you credit for that one. 17:05.168 --> 17:09.438 It took me 480 of them, but we're getting there, folks. 17:09.438 --> 17:38.160 It's not nearly that much, listener. Talk about this film, Aaron, as like you mentioned that the series was playing as part of was like originally that it was funded as and like was debuting as was part of a filmmakers sort of envisioning 2000, even though this came out in 1998. It wasn't a whole lot of time. I think Tsai Ming-Liang himself was like, it's pretty close to the future, 2000 now. So it's really— I'm really just going to make a contemporary movie, but intensifying some of those things. 17:38.160 --> 17:55.878 So what was going on in Taiwan, by the way, that all these people were so obsessed with the year 2000, with the turn of the millennium? It was— I feel like every single pivotal Chinese and Taiwanese movie from the last You know, 30 years is all about like it was the new millennium. 17:55.878 --> 17:57.770 We had mambos, we had holes. 17:57.770 --> 18:03.108 I was going to say, because this is not playing as part of a series at the Trilon, at least that's what you said, Jason. 18:03.108 --> 18:03.990 Not that I could find. 18:03.990 --> 18:26.800 And we've covered, I don't know, 4 films maybe at this point, not including this one, that have dealt with the turn of the millennium. Now, that's a big deal, right? Obviously, some of us may be, depending on medical advancements and whether there's a nuclear war, maybe we'll live to see the end of the century. You know, fingers crossed that we'd be very old at that point, but who knows? And that was— 18:26.800 --> 18:29.740 Are you aiming for that? You're aiming for 3,000? 18:29.740 --> 18:33.320 Was this a soft launch? No, I'm sorry. 18:33.320 --> 18:34.120 Yeah, yeah. 18:34.120 --> 18:34.820 2,100. 18:34.820 --> 18:40.510 2,100, right? It would be amazing if you made it to 3,000. You'd have to be like bionic or something. 18:40.510 --> 19:12.488 Let's see. I got some people working on that. But, you know, this is a film that I think could be slotted into a series about like the changing of the millennium, which is like Undeniably, like one of the most— you kind of got one-upped here in the US by something that happened a year later. But like, other than that, like one of the most impactful things to happen, you know, in our lifetime, certainly. Although I think we were generally a little too young to fully comprehend it. I think the Trylon should do a, you know, end of millennium sort of— I mean, get some movies from 2001, you know. 19:12.488 --> 19:51.108 And again, if only because like there are a bunch of especially East Asian movies that just so happen to be among the best movies ever made that are about this. It's really It's really funny that, like, it's such a trope, right? The turn of the millennia thing that when Began's movie Resurrection that came out last year, that is sort of like doing pastiche, like plays on a bunch of different movies. The last one, which is very clearly like his take on one of like these East Asian sort of Taiwanese new cinema— new wave, excuse me— thing, it takes place on the last night of 1999. 19:51.108 --> 19:51.558 Yeah. 19:51.558 --> 20:06.120 It feels like an acknowledgment from him that like, oh, I want to be one of those guys too, right? And it's like, it's truly just like, this is, this is such an important time period for Taiwanese and Chinese cinema. It feels like it really was. 20:06.457 --> 20:34.015 I think I— there's some reading that I did to poke around exactly why Tsai Ming-Liang put this film down the way he did as a specific target at 2000. But Harry, expound a little bit since we got Aaron's take on what you think of this movie as like a vision of 2000, not specifically of like a new era or whatever, but hey, You're making a movie in 1998, filmmakers. Tell us, like, loosely connect what you're about to make to the concept of the 2000s. How do you think he's doing that here? 20:34.015 --> 22:48.118 Yeah, no, I mean, like, I think it, it, it's really important, right, that it, it makes the entire movie feel even more obviously allegorical than you would imagine it would. I mean, I, I think it's, it's impossible not to watch this movie, and maybe this is too simplistic a take, but like, I think this is him looking forward to a new millennium of isolation and disconnection, right? I think that, like, I read the disease itself as very much metaphorical for sort of like the new state of being in a world that is increasingly sort of isolated and disconnected even as it globalizes, right? And I think that it's no accident that when asked in 1998, right, like, what does 2000 look like to you? He comes up with this semi-apocalyptic vision of a bunch of people sequestered in their own apartments like it's COVID-19 and so afraid of each other that— and themselves in another way— that their psyches are sort of fracturing. And I mean, you know, I think that there are a bunch of things in this movie that are like purely metaphorical for that, right? We can talk about the dance sequences and stuff that are so important, but Just the way that these characters are going about their lives, the way that like there there is this looming threat of infection and disease that seems to be sort of like altering or or at least directing how they live their lives entirely, right? I I did I just think that like Simon Leong was obviously thinking about like the way that 2000 is going to look moving forward, right? Like what is what is the nature of of being a person in the year 2000? and in the new millennia going to be. And I think that he has a very— I, you know, I mean, I think that this movie ends at a hopeful place, but I think he's reckoning with the idea that, you know, the rise of the internet and the rise of globalization is going to create a sort of epidemic of isolation and loneliness that is going to define the century to come, the millennia to come. And it's quite prescient in that way. 22:48.566 --> 24:44.811 And to go back to what he was saying in another interview, which I'll probably link in the show notes if I can dig it back up, was like the assignment was to create a movie about what 2000 would be like, or I guess the broad mandate of create a movie of your vision of the 2000s in 1998. And he, the way he approached it was it's 1998 now. If I'm going to make a movie about 2000, I'm kind of making a movie about today because like, yes, things will change, but really what's, what's in play right now is just going to come to fruition in 1998, in 2000. So in addition to like, yeah, he's forecasting to what the future might be, it's not like in a— people say that Kiyoshi Kurosawa with Pulse— was that Kurosawa? Yeah, that was him, right? I never ended up seeing it. But there are those movies from like, let's say 1995-ish through the new millennium that were about the incoming age of social media and digital connection and the internet, etc., and this sort of intimacy, promise of intimacy, but a reality of distance that those things ushered in, that those things helped prognosticate. And this movie doesn't quite feel like that. It feels like he is just seeing— he's just sort of intensifying what is already extant in culture at that time. And, you know, there are some flavor adds about specifically Taiwanese culture, what it looked like in Taipei for— I mean, I really want to talk about the location at some point as well, because I think it plays in pretty heavily here, not just to this movie, but like his— the rest of his career and what else we've discussed from him on this podcast. I think like he's just seeing a great isolation, a great disaffectation among like people who live very close to each other. There's no it's no coincidence that people are very tightly packed in this housing complex in a very bustling part of Taipei, and also so distant that only a plumber making a mistake and drilling a hole through a floor and it becoming this point of contention between 2 neighbors is the thing that actually exposes them to one another. And, you know, he runs a shop down on the first floor of the building, but they really don't interact until there's this glaring problem before them. And then they're sort of forced into— they're roped into this interaction. 24:44.811 --> 25:07.030 And it's mostly a pain in the ass, right? Like, that's one of my favorite things about this movie is that Despite, you know, ultimately being a movie about the need for human connection, I really love that. Like, it— first of all, it played so broadly in the Trilon in a good way where, like, people were laughing and groaning. Like, when he throws up into the hole, right? Like, people were really— 25:07.030 --> 25:13.907 Is he really doing that? I can't— I don't see a hose or anything on him. He must be really yucking down that hole. Yeah, that's fucking yucky. 25:13.907 --> 25:23.734 And yeah, but it plays, right? Like, people were like groaning, people were laughing. I mean, like, this movie is really funny and really like enjoyable, but it— but it's also about like— 25:23.734 --> 25:24.776 Yeah. 25:24.776 --> 26:15.867 I love that it doesn't shy away from, and it isn't like precious or cute about the fact that like, you know, being with people is a pain in the ass, right? Like, like being around people, like they all have these idiosyncrasies. Like, I love that she keeps spraying like obsessively her apartment and it's a huge annoyance for the man upstairs. And I just like, I really, I think that like I think that that's exactly the right place to start with this movie, right? It's like, it's not just a sort of like precious sort of like plea for intimacy and for human connection. It's also much more like open-eyed and realistic about like, you know, the whole spectrum of human experience, often including lots of like petty annoyances and frustrations and grievances that come with living around and among people. And that's much better than it could have been otherwise. 26:17.163 --> 26:49.258 Yeah, it really is the push of this movie, almost vignettes, but obviously connected by those 2 characters who keep— like, we see from his perspective and then from her perspective and the sort of intensifying relationship that they create on opposite sides of this wall, literally, that then of course eventually comes to connect them. Um, I do want to ask Aaron, did this movie— was it kind of like exposure therapy for you too as, as a homeowner? Every time I heard running water constantly or saw water like seeping from the walls, I like— I started to realize I was getting like panicky about living in Minnesota with a leaky basement. 26:49.258 --> 26:50.284 Yeah. 26:50.380 --> 27:32.670 I mean, I think it is sort of unique to renters. I hate, I hate to, I hate to throw it, not to put it on Harry, the renter in the room right now, but I do think there is like, so one, obviously there's something about water, right? I mean, we can, we can get into it, but there's something about water as this like ever sort of, especially given the, you know, environment that they're in where it's constantly raining. I don't think we see, you know, They're going through some sort of apocalyptic, you know, weather event where it is constantly raining. The water is constantly seeping in. We see so many just like really nasty, you know, ways that they're coping with this, you know, wringing out towels that are sort of seeping up water along cracks in the floor. 27:32.670 --> 27:38.027 The woman downstairs eventually has to tear all of the wallpaper out of her apartment just because it's just leaking. 27:38.027 --> 27:44.041 Just to the point where it's like so soaked where she just like gets one hand up and just immediately just pulls it off like, right? 27:44.105 --> 27:52.618 Like, like, I mean, it's a great visual storytelling, right? Because every time we go back downstairs, like, there's less of her apartment left, literally, because the walls are peeling off. 27:52.618 --> 27:59.784 Which is something that we've, we've sort of seen, you know, in the, the other film from this director that we've covered. 27:59.784 --> 28:01.179 Loves, loves a white movie. 28:01.179 --> 28:26.280 The Neon God. Yeah, he loves a— or I think maybe he hates it and he's, he's dealing with it. You know, this seems like somebody who maybe has lived in these sorts of locales before and is like, I'm fucking sick of there just straight up not being a maintenance guy to deal with this bullshit, you know? There's a plumber, I guess. But, you know, he's, he's overworked. But yeah, I mean, there's something about water, you know, if we want to get to that, like symbolically, specifically with like— 28:26.280 --> 28:26.664 Yeah, hit it. 28:26.664 --> 28:46.363 The glass of water at the end. There's also something about like, you know, these people as renters in this area where everything is slowly breaking down. And they're unable to do anything about it, right? Like, I do think it is sort of tied to the idea of like renting or like a lack of ownership or a lack of— 28:46.363 --> 28:47.213 Powerlessness. 28:47.213 --> 30:04.386 Right. Being, being powerless. That's so nicely tied into water as this force that is constantly flowing into anywhere that it can expand into, right? Constantly moving downwards, sort of slowly decaying everything with it. And then that contrasting with the ending where a glass of water is this like moment of reprieve or a connection between these 2 people. It's, I think, you know, I think that it's one of the great— and I don't think I maybe like this movie quite as much as you 2, but it's like one of the great examples of a plague or catastrophe or what have you sort of being represented by this sort of larger sort of environmental condition. This is like a trope that I think a lot of like really good directors and authors have played with, right? I think that like The Plague, the Camus novel, is great. The Pathologic video games, I would say, you know, these are all works of art that like use the idea of like a contagion or a plague or extreme circumstances like this and kind of play with them in this manner. And like, I think that like Like the weather and the water is like such a perfect way to do that. It's, it's, I think, the best aspect of the movie, to be honest. 30:04.386 --> 30:11.894 Right. I mean, at least 2 Coen Brothers movies that I can think of off the top of my head, Barton Fink and A Serious Man, both play with that concept. You know, like these sort of— 30:11.894 --> 30:15.295 I didn't think about Barton Fink. That's a good one. That is a good one. 30:15.295 --> 30:18.793 When I saw her like squeegeeing out the water from behind her shitty wallpaper. 30:18.793 --> 30:20.028 Yeah, the peeling wallpaper. 30:20.028 --> 31:22.414 Exactly. I mean, just like the incredible never-ending, but not like violent, just consistent. Just knowing that there's— I don't know, I sometimes get in my head when I'm on dog walks, of all places. And I look at houses and I'm like, everything about the construction of this building is meant to just like sort of defy gravity and water. And if it can do that, it would stand forever. But nothing can do that. So everything is just a coping mechanism for keeping it like standing up and like in the air. And like, it's gonna win out eventually. And it's not because it's stronger, not because one thing will like flash flood it or, you know, Gravity's not going to suddenly work heavier on it. It's just going to work for longer than you possibly can as a human, as like a society. Something about that gets in my head and that idea works its way back out while I'm watching a movie like this. And yeah, you're either hearing or seeing water constantly falling. One of the things that I want to talk about later is alongside that, you're often seeing just like— and they don't mention it even once— just garbage falling with the rain from upper level apartments. I didn't know what I was seeing at first, but like just trash falling with it. Just— 31:22.495 --> 31:24.373 it happens constantly in the background. 31:24.470 --> 31:28.078 Like in the middle of romantic scenes, you know, tense romantic scenes. 31:28.078 --> 31:31.012 She's like applying stuff to her face, I think like an egg white. 31:31.012 --> 31:31.622 An egg white. 31:31.622 --> 31:39.784 Yeah, but she's applying this, you know, egg to her face, and as she's doing it, like the, the dust from right above just perfectly gets on her face. So good. 31:40.842 --> 31:44.515 Uh, yeah, I, I know that's— Harry, was that anywhere near the direction you wanted to go next? 31:44.515 --> 32:16.410 I know, I love it. I, I think that, uh, we should talk about water, right? I mean, I, I think that there— it's doing so much here, right? Because like, first of all, you're right, like it is this, this common experience that we all share, right? Like as the, the final scene points out, we all need water, but it's also a vector for disease, a specific disease in this case, right? Like I think it's, it's not outright stated, but I think we can imply that, that the disease may be waterborne, right? Or at least that having a ton of standing water inside your apartment is not a good thing. It's not a hygienic thing. It's something that you have to deal with. 32:16.410 --> 32:18.623 It's a big It might be letting the cockroaches in. 32:18.623 --> 33:49.249 Right, exactly. And it's also— it's a solution, right? Things combine in water, right? Like this, there's sort of a sense in which, like, you are— your individuality is breaking down. You are becoming a part of a larger sort of fluid system that these characters are trying to resist in their own ways, or at least the woman downstairs is very hard trying to resist sort of like having to have her life impugned upon by the man upstairs, right? She is a very independent person. She is stockpiling toilet paper. She has not left the apartment even though the evacuation order has come in. You can even— I think the first musical number, Calypso, all of which feature her— she's the one dancing and lip-syncing, right? And I think that they sort of stand in for her changing subconsciousness, right? And the first The first dance number is all about her independence, right? It's all about how she wants to be on her own and do her dance and like never get tired of being by herself, right? And so it makes a lot of sense that she would be the one so resistant to this water coming into her apartment and sort of penetrating her sanctuary. The disease itself is a disease of isolationism, right? It like— the people who are afflicted with it run from light and try to be by themselves, hunkered down in darkness and shadow, right? And get a— they literally run from light. It's— I can't remember what it— photophobia maybe is the technical term for it. 33:49.249 --> 33:54.184 I wouldn't give this motherfucker license to portray me in his film. 33:54.345 --> 33:55.643 And then he goes and he does that. 33:55.867 --> 33:56.700 Hey, fuck you, pal. 33:56.764 --> 33:57.101 All right. 33:57.165 --> 34:00.578 Give me a— I know this movie made, I assume, what, billions of dollars? 34:00.691 --> 34:03.543 I mean, you got to— I paid a huge cut of those. 34:03.880 --> 34:03.944 Yes. 34:04.200 --> 34:04.456 Yes. 34:05.001 --> 34:11.090 I love the idea that a Sid Ming-Liang movie was just a gigantic critical breakout commercial success. 34:11.090 --> 34:11.270 Yeah. 34:11.270 --> 34:14.010 I think this movie made like $50,000 in the box office. 34:14.010 --> 34:16.330 You literally have not been able to see it in the United States. 34:16.330 --> 34:17.500 Box office was $55,000. 34:18.530 --> 34:19.190 Yes. Yeah. 34:19.190 --> 34:20.650 Literally $55,000. 34:20.650 --> 35:35.164 I think the thing, the thing that this movie does so right, and I brought it up already, but like even the water metaphor, it's like, I think what the movie gets right is that it's sympathetic to this woman's like need to be by herself as sympathetic, even though it is ultimately, in my opinion, right, broadly a critique of isolationism and a plea for sort of connection and, you know, like being with other people, the primacy of that, the human need that we all have. It is also a movie that is sort of like, yeah, it sucks when like you have to deal with your fucking like annoying neighbors who puke into a hole that is drilled in the top of your apartment. And it's sort of like, it is about sort of like how there will be frustrations and like dirtiness and a lack of purity that comes with interacting with people. And that is just an inescapable part of what it means to live in a community. Right. And I think it's sympathetic to why you would want to get away from that. Right. In a, in an open-eyed way that makes, that makes the critique, I think, hit better, more, more effectively than it might otherwise if it, if it didn't acknowledge the The actual disadvantages that come with connection. 35:35.164 --> 38:22.182 I'm going to ride with you on, on that last part. But the first part, I think, I think I have a different perspective informed primarily by an interview I read with Tsai Ming-Liang from like the year of this movie's release. There was what's his name, David something. I wrote down the quote here. Actually, no, I didn't. But it was an interview where he said he was talking specifically about those musical numbers. And he said, for me, it's more like the statement of her inner world. This woman is apparently very cold, but her inner world is very passionate and she craves somebody to love her. The musical numbers are, and this is the pull quote, weapons that I use to confront the environment at the end of the millennium. Toward the end of the century, a lot of qualities such as passionate desire, naive simplicity have been suppressed. The musicals contain those qualities. It's something that I use psychologically to confront that world. So I think the front end of like this movie showing empathy or understanding or like giving her space to be be a person who like does not want or need or is not necessarily comfortable opening to others. I think it's like, it's setting that up as part of the character that she has that, and it's understanding of like, it's giving her space to be that, but then it's totally attacking that because it's not a thing that she— I think it's implying that it's not a thing she wants. It's a thing she's been conditioned into by living in this, you know, squalid space, by living in an overpopulated place, Taipei, that like exploded in development at the expense of everybody but the, but, uh, but the humans at the very who profited from it. No real resonance with today's current economic condition, I'm sure. But with being a person who is sort of lost by the rest of society rather than that she specifically chose as an element of something she wants out of her life to be alone or to be left or whatever. She inherently wants these things and is conditioned by the world around her to not have them or to run from them or sort of hide from the light sort of thing. And these musical numbers are The way of expressing what she actually wants through the— I mean, I thought I would find something a lot more, and you could probably read in something a lot more, not a narrative, something a lot more maybe contrasting with other parts of culture. But as spoken from the director himself, that's where I choose to really focus on, is that that's exactly what it is. It's like it's a portrayal of her internal life, and he's using that character to sort of rail against the changing, the coming disaffectation that Harry was talking about of the 2000s, the coming separation, the distance between what, you know, forms of intimacy have been and forms of desire and longing have been and what it will look like in the 2000s and beyond. That, like those musical numbers, we can talk about Grace Chang as like a vector of that, the woman who wrote and performed the songs that, that the actress is performing in this movie. But I just think like it's pretty clearly indirectly uncorking that, like untangling that knot of hers rather than saying like the knot is valid and it's beautiful that you want to be alone. I don't think that it's doing that so much. 38:22.262 --> 38:22.679 No, of course. 38:22.727 --> 38:23.177 Does that make sense? 38:23.177 --> 39:20.920 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, but, but I— what I'm saying and what I find so interesting about it is that, like, that I really love that Simon Leung called them weapons, right? Because, like, they do function as weapons within the movie for the viewer, but also for the protagonist herself, right? Like, I think that, that it is like— I read the musical numbers as representations of her repressed subconscious. unconscious, right? It's like, it's maybe not even necessarily something that she wants to admit, right? Because she does resist connection with this guy. But, you know, like, literally this dancing version of herself keeps, like, impugning upon her isolation, right? Like, the first one literally has her coming up the elevator like she's entering the apartment for the first time, right? And constantly playing out in the background, it's sort of like you almost want to get away from this, but like, you're subconscious is sort of like, yeah, but what is that guy's deal? You know? 39:20.920 --> 39:30.130 Right. And that's, that's borne out by several times, like, as, as they get closer, you know, even if it's like he's in the background and she's in the foreground, but they're in the same shot, then she gets into like the I want you. 39:30.130 --> 39:31.050 Yes, of course. 39:31.420 --> 39:36.400 Musical numbers. It's like it intensifies over the course of their relationship, even if it's just scant, like, looks. 39:36.400 --> 40:07.794 And you could tell that, like, what I really love about the music is that the music is great. First of all, all those songs are fucking bangers. But like, they're almost obnoxious, right? Like, they're so— they're so big, and they're so overheated and melodramatic and about love and romance. And like, you know, like, they're literally like almost Rockettes routines, right? And it's in such stark contrast to the apartment life that we see in the rest of the narrative, which is so understated, right? 40:07.794 --> 40:08.324 Mm-hmm. 40:08.324 --> 41:14.598 And it's just such a great great, like, vivid examination of, like, that is, that is how it feels to, like, you know, like the, the subconscious, the inner life versus the outer life, and never the twain shall meet, right? Is that, like, it can almost be frustrating that, like, despite the fact that you are living in this, these ramshackle circumstances in this desperate situation, like, your subconscious is inventing romance movies in your head between you and the guy upstairs. cares, right? And it's sort of like, it's almost frustrating, but it's also like, that's what human beings are, right? Like, even in circumstances this dire and this, like, lowly, like, she is having in her mind a dance party, right? Because, like, that's just who we are. And, like, that's why we need people, right? It's like, we need— like, we're going to be creating these stories, these, like, scenarios in our heads no matter what. And You know, like we need something to feed on. That's an important part of being a human being, is even if it is a fantasy, right? Even if it's never really going to look the way it does in your head. 41:14.598 --> 41:28.395 I think I particularly love, you know, they're well constructed and they're good songs and they're sort of dazzlingly produced in the middle of— even though the setting doesn't change, the costumes do and the performances do. New characters pop in out of nowhere as like backup singers and dancers. 41:28.395 --> 41:32.217 Yeah, I think it's really important that it all still happens in the apartment. apartment, right? 41:32.297 --> 41:33.611 Like, there is no set exchange. 41:33.675 --> 41:33.995 You're right. 41:33.995 --> 42:09.672 Very much so. Um, but mostly I love just in, in considering the, the directorial choice to do that, like to insert these things in that, it's like a distinctly not chill way to get that idea across. It's not like cool and under the surface and Wong Kar-wai where it's like a simmering sexuality and tension. It's like, it's a woman screaming from her subconscious, I'm incredibly horny, I'm incredibly lonely, Um, you know, I, I want the man in the next apartment even though I fucking hate him and he pisses all over me. And like, he's— and I gotta spray bug spray at him and I gotta put tape up and I gotta call him and tell him he's being a pissant. I gotta hate him at his door. 42:09.672 --> 42:44.219 Even though that element of her psyche is annoying even to her, right? Like, like, I, I think it's truly part of the equation here that like these dance, uh, interludes are not entirely welcome by anyone, right? It's sort of like, why am I— like, why am I watching this? Like, why is this happening now? Like, and that's kind of the way that that, that we're supposed to feel as the viewer, because that's probably how she feels, right? Is sort of like, why am I having fantasies about the man upstairs and like the life that we're going to— like the fun romance we're going to go on together, when really like what I want to do is, is hoard my toilet paper and fucking seal up this hole and have him fuck off? 42:44.219 --> 42:45.005 Yeah. 42:46.111 --> 42:54.511 Uh, Aaron, haven't heard too much from you on the musical numbers. Did they work for you? Were they bizarro and stuck out? Are they part of the experience or a point of For you? 42:54.511 --> 43:36.876 I didn't connect with them too much. I think they were sort of the, the element of the film that I read the least amount into. I think, you know, discussing it and sort of reading them as this, like, I don't know, uh, like, like maybe manic— manic seems maybe too harsh, right? But like this, this sort of like dream, right? This sort of daydream, um, uh, uh, the kind of juxtaposes the kind of the actual kind of reality of the situation. I think that sort of works for me. I don't read these as like something that happened, right? Like, I don't know, am I supposed to read— maybe there's something in the text that I've missed, right? But like, are we supposed to read that she's actually running around? 43:36.876 --> 43:38.064 I don't think so. 43:38.064 --> 43:40.360 And I don't think so. 43:40.713 --> 43:40.890 Right. 43:41.018 --> 44:08.296 It is a, you know, it's a symbolic thing that like stands in opposition to what But everything else in the film is right. And I think, you know, read in that manner, I think it sort of works for me. I don't think it— I didn't connect with it in the same way that I do with like the ending of the film, which I think is like pretty brilliant, right? The music's nice. I, you know, it's good stuff. I was not familiar with Grace Chang, so shout out to Grace Chang. 44:08.296 --> 44:36.859 Yeah, for a little bit of a primer, I'll give the ones and twos honor and then Harry, you can jump in with sort of the analysis. Grace Chang Hong Kong singer and actress, really big in the '50s. Wikipedia notes that she was particularly popular with middle-class families. I'm not exactly sure how you would have stratified popularity or fame among those communities, but supposedly. She literally just died earlier this month, August of 2026, at the age of 93. 44:36.859 --> 44:37.677 Oh, man. 44:38.575 --> 45:37.873 RIP. RIP. Obviously, it evokes a more openly sentimental, even schmaltzy time to have this '50s big band show tunes play in the middle of this movie. I think that forwards the idea Harry and I were talking about, and that the director himself was talking about, you like weaponizing this thing. I couldn't find a specific interview where he talks about the specific choice of Grace Chang as like the vector, as like the body for that feeling, for whatever this woman is going through in her head. And eventually what the— I think it's implied at the end when they connect and he pulls her up into his apartment above, I think it's then like they both— you start to see he, even though he hasn't gotten one of these things of his own, he's part of it in a more intentional way rather than just fully objectified. They're sort of experiencing a tender moment. We'll talk about the ending soon enough, but that's a little bit of a primer on Grace Chang and why you're seeing them do these, as Harry's saying, Rockettes routines in the middle of the movie 4 or 5 times and why you might consider this movie a musical. But Harry, give me your take on Grace Chang, where she pops in and what she means here. 45:37.873 --> 45:37.969 Yeah. 45:38.049 --> 46:06.038 Well, I think what you said at the start there is really important, right? That these are big melodramatic sensational sentimental performances, right? I, it's frustrating because like I don't know necessarily a Western genre equivalent, but it's like the schmaltziest music you can imagine in terms of like classical Chinese music, right? Like the, I guess the equivalent would be like, I don't know, like '50s music for us, right? 46:06.038 --> 46:10.109 Maybe would be sort of of similar, you know, like crooner shit. 46:10.109 --> 47:48.190 Yeah, crooner shit. Exactly. Sinatra's similar, right? I, you know, there's a cultural thing there, but, but, and I think that like, that's maybe my favorite part of this movie is just this idea that like our need to connect and our need to experience these fantasy lives need not be emotional. It could be like this sort of like even childish part of ourselves or like this over-the-top part of ourselves, like, but we need that, right? Like that there is this necessity to even the embarrassing, schmaltzy, somewhat ridiculous parts of ourselves. And that is the part of being a human being that requires other human beings, right? Like, I think it, you know, it's easy to read this because of the contrast between the two worlds, the fantasy world and the reality, as sort of like this is a person's fractured psyche, right? There's a person who wants to go her own way here. And then this is sort of a war between her subconscious who needs these things and maybe the conscious self who wants to protect herself, right? The ego that wants to protect itself from literally disease in this case, right? But disease as a metaphor for, you know, being the, the blending over of the self with other people, with the environment, with, with time. And I think that like Like, I, I really like the idea that, like, there is— that, that the, the big part of ourselves that needs other people is emotional, and it's maybe even irrationally so. Um, but that doesn't mean it's, it's less, uh, important or less prime a part of who we are. Um, I— 47:48.190 --> 47:48.431 Yes. 47:48.431 --> 48:01.654 I think that that's, that's a really, like, um, hysterical, uh, and appropriately, like, like, big, uh, theme to, to address this way. I find it very affecting. 48:01.654 --> 49:24.450 Right. And outside of those, like, bigger, like, her subconscious or her, you know, innate desire kind of thing, you get the little tiny glimpses of the guy almost reciprocating that, or at least the story necessitating that, like, you read it as such. Like, the moment I'm thinking of is when she calls him and she's like, hey, when you piss, it falls down into my apartment. And splashes all over my bathroom and makes my bathroom shitty. And then the next time you see him go pee, he goes and pees in the sink. And it's an unspoken thing, but it's almost like a romantic gesture by comparison to how they've been treating each other in the past before this moment. So there's that little interplay. What I want to get to is the sort of— that is the strikeout. That is the— if it's a weapon, it's a deployed weapon against a specific setting, against a specific disaffectation and urban malaise, we'll say. We talked a lot about this in our episode years ago about Rebels of the Neon God, another Tsai Ming-Liang movie, as Aaron was mentioning earlier. But the background against which this movie is cast and these characters are interacting is this 16-story apartment building. I sent a video earlier. I don't know if you guys had a chance to watch it, but it's a real place. It's appeared in a few of his movies. What did you think about the setting here? How does it play or contrast with the story you think it's trying to tell, Aaron? 49:24.450 --> 49:30.450 So this is like sort of running in parallel to your question. So sorry to do this very annoying sort of thing. No, please. We're just contrasting it. 49:30.450 --> 49:30.810 It's fine. 49:30.810 --> 49:43.450 But I have seen— I am not as familiar. I think I've probably seen the least films by this director. I've seen this and Rebels of the Neon God. I think you guys have seen other films by this director. Am I correct? Correct, or am I? 49:43.450 --> 49:45.130 Goodbye, Dragon Inn. 49:45.130 --> 49:52.850 Yeah, I haven't seen that because fucking Dragon Inn is not available on streaming, and I wanted to watch it. The last three times I've been like, oh, let's go watch that. 49:52.850 --> 49:56.170 You feel like you would need to see Dragon Inn and then see? 49:56.290 --> 49:57.030 Yeah, of course. 49:57.030 --> 49:57.390 Why not? 49:57.390 --> 49:58.529 I don't clearly that's Harry. 49:58.529 --> 50:00.050 Correct me if I'm wrong. You don't need to. 50:00.090 --> 50:00.430 No, I don't. 50:00.430 --> 50:01.200 I don't think so. 50:01.330 --> 50:04.870 But I don't think it's referencing plot points in the martial arts movie. 50:04.870 --> 50:07.380 I mean, you should see Dragon Inn because that movie also rules. 50:07.410 --> 50:09.530 Yeah, just hold on. 50:09.530 --> 50:09.750 Wait for. 50:09.770 --> 50:10.555 I'm gonna do that if— 50:10.844 --> 50:13.233 what do you mean? If I'm gonna go see the movie, unless it's like— 50:13.233 --> 50:17.082 You haven't even said hello, Dragon Inn. You can't say goodbye before you've said hello. 50:17.082 --> 51:07.802 Unless I welcomed in Dragon Inn, how can I, how can I see it go? Um, but so I have seen, and I, I am not aware if this is correct or whatnot, um, but you know, uh, the actor Li Kangsheng is a frequent collaborator, I believe constant collaborator potentially, uh, with Tsai Ming-Liang. You know, he is—I don't know—I wouldn't call him like his muse, maybe, right? But he is in all maybe of his films. Sure. And a lot of people have argued that watching Sai Ming Liang's films, you know, kind of front to back, they are largely concerning like sort of the same character. In fact, I've seen a lot of references to you know the the man. upstairs in this movie being Sio Kang from Rebels of the Neon God. 51:07.802 --> 51:08.172 Oh, wow. 51:08.172 --> 51:23.425 Including— and then also saying like, hey, pretty much all of his first few films have the same actor as the main character. And straight up in Wikipedia, it says like, this is the same guy and that this is like very much like kind of playing— 51:23.425 --> 51:28.515 He's also in What Time Is It There? Yeah, 100%. I'm just seeing this now, too. 51:30.556 --> 52:26.870 So I don't know. I mean, I haven't— I Googled around about this. I haven't seen anything. Supposedly in interviews, Tsai Ming-Liang has basically said like, hey, I make movies because I like collaborating with this guy and I make movies very much about, you know, the characters in the film sort of representing what I see in this actor as his life changes and grows. I haven't seen enough of his films to to say that, but like to tie that into, you know, kind of the reuse of this, you know, apartment building flooded with water, tying into this apartment building that this character facing a good degree of sort of, you know, melancholy and apprehension about his place in the world and the future. I think there is something sort of tied into that, right? Tied into like this sort of apartment kind of acting as this sort of, you know, representation of this person's life. I don't know, Harry, is there anything there that— 52:26.870 --> 53:20.310 Yeah, well, you know, I think it helps inform his character arc in this, right? Where he is the one who is much more proactively trying to get to her, right? I almost like— I wonder if like, if it's possible to read this character as almost post-arc, where it's like he knows that she needs him because like that's sort of his role here, is to like make his way down through the hole and pull her up to him. And this is about her life. I kind of love the idea, right? Because like Jason said, I think it's really important that like we don't see as much interiority to this guy, right? We see him with the store and we see him with the cats where he's kind of trying to take care of this cat and make sure it doesn't get fumigated and make sure it stays alive, right? It keeps taking care of it, but we never see his subconscious. He seems a lot more at one with his subconscious maybe, which is why we don't get the dance numbers the way that we do with her. And I kind of— 53:20.310 --> 53:21.490 I wouldn't call him the main character even. 53:21.490 --> 53:22.190 No, not at all. 53:22.190 --> 53:22.710 I wouldn't call him the main character. 53:22.710 --> 53:44.071 Yes, he's absolutely the supporting character Compared to her, I would say. And I think that like he is, and maybe it's even fun to read it as like, and not that we necessarily have to do this, but it's almost like Simon Leung's movie's coming for her, right? It's like this motherfucker is upstairs, he's the movie, and he's coming down to get her, right? 53:44.119 --> 54:27.783 Like, do you think, do you think there's an aspect of this for him too as this kid? Because I did check Wikipedia, all the first five. of the director's films, it is this actor, it is playing a character with the same name. Wikipedia is not the fucking source on that. So, you know, whatever, especially for international films where, like this one, where, you know, it wasn't, you know, localized, it wasn't widely available in the US until recently. But do you think there's an aspect of this where he is going around from sort of flooded apartment to flooded apartment across Taiwan just being like, motherfucker, another one? Cannot find a good plumber around here. Cannot find a good rental agency. I fucking hate this. You should move. He should move. He should go somewhere else. 54:27.912 --> 54:54.742 Yeah. I mean, he's originally from Malaysia, the director, and he moved to Taipei, I guess, in his youth. So like, yeah, he knows a little bit about being a stranger in an interesting place, in an urban place. I think the paralleling of the character with the space, which is— it sounds like broadly what we're doing here with the main character, Lee Kang-sheng. Yeah, Li Kangsheng's character, which I don't think either of these characters are given names, at least not explicitly. 54:54.742 --> 54:56.813 It's the man upstairs and the woman downstairs. Yep. 54:56.813 --> 55:39.895 Fair. Paralleling those 2 things is, I think, very wise because then it's no longer just the main character, the woman, having these expressions of intimacy, desire for intimacy and love and horniness and whatever we're calling it, and finally catching a hook on a fish in that casting her line and finally finding somebody who wants to reciprocate, but him sort of feeling pulled toward her over time. If he's post-arc, as Harry's saying, then he sort of recognizes what she wants, what she needs, and starts to see a little bit of it in himself. Is that why? And this is one of the questions I literally wrote down. Of all the things that I was trying to suss out about this movie and all the different curveballs it likes to throw you, why does he put his leg through the hole? Like, I sound like a fucking idiot, but— 55:39.895 --> 55:40.856 No, you're right. 55:40.856 --> 55:42.073 Why does he put his leg through the hole? 55:42.073 --> 56:39.078 There is— I mean, I think at that point he's trying to smash his way into her Like literally, right? I think he puts his leg through the hole to widen it. I think he's testing it. He wants— because, you know, he's smashing his way through. He's widening the hole earlier with that hammer that he eventually discards. Yes, I think that like— and it's supposed to be sort of ambiguous why he's doing that, right? And maybe even a little bit sinister and scary. Like, I'm not saying he wants to like assault her or something, but it is sort of like, why is this fucking guy like making the hole bigger? Why is he coming in? in there, right? It's supposed to be sort of like, like, is he, is he, you know, trying to save her? Is he trying to infect her? It's sort of like all of these things at once, right? And it is sort of like that, again, metaphor of sort of like, it's, it's complicated to interact with other people and not always like, you know, unambiguously good. It can be scary. It can be sort of like weird. It can be awkward. It can be inexplicable, right? I think— 56:39.078 --> 56:47.607 Sometimes you just want to say, hey, what's up? What are you listening to? And sometimes you just up putting your foot through a hole in the woman's ceiling. I mean, like, it's easy to make that mistake, right? 56:47.607 --> 57:19.032 And, and part of it is the inexplicability, right? Because like, he doesn't answer his door when the doorbell rings. He could presumably go downstairs and knock on her door. That's not what he's doing, right? Instead, like, we construct these elaborate, like, and, and backward rituals so that we can touch the skin of other men or whatever, right? And it's like, instead of going downstairs and knocking and introducing himself and saying, hey, I'm the man upstairs, he is smacking a hole through her apartment, right? Because like this is the sort of like awkward indirect way in which we try to interact with each other, right? 57:19.032 --> 57:49.914 Or in which we will in 2000. So he's saying like, yeah, it's incoming. He sort of sees what happened in the, you know, '70s through the '90s. I'm saying he, Tsai Ming-kiang, he sort of sees what happens especially in these crowded urban environments where Taiwan exploded in development, where technology allowed it, where like advancements in construction, advancements in wealth inequality, really justified the build, rapid development of these places. And like somewhere in there, the human emotion of it all, the impetus to connect is lost, is just quashed under material conditions. 57:49.914 --> 57:50.267 Yeah. 57:50.267 --> 57:54.182 And this is like that sort of finding its way back out, I think is what he's saying. 57:54.182 --> 57:56.556 Right. But it's gonna be— it's gonna be weird and hard. 57:56.556 --> 57:56.877 Right. 57:56.877 --> 57:57.663 Right. I mean, I think— 57:57.663 --> 57:58.321 They're not gonna know how. 57:58.321 --> 59:30.692 I think that you're— that you're— you're so right about the building, right? The building feels symbolic of sort of like like the future, right? It's sort of like, this is what it's going to look like to live in the future, is like everybody's going to be in an apartment. If not exactly like this, then like tenements are sort of like, you know, the, um, the standard living unit of the future. And, uh, we're all going to be sequestered in them. And when we try to interact with each other, it's going to manifest in these strange ways, right? Like, I even read— I even read the subconscious dancing as a sort of like sort of an overreaction to repression, right? It's sort of like this is literally like a part of her brain that is bursting out of her that is sort of like, hey, I like— I want this, I need this. Like, you need to have a like fantasy life, you need to sort of have a romance because that's part of like being alive that is not being satisfied by the way that you're living right now, right? And I really think that like that sort of— this sort of explosion of resentment— or not resentment, repression overcome— and collision with one another, even in this backward, sort of like penetrative way, is sort of what he's getting at here, right? Is sort of like it's never going to stop. I think maybe that's the hope, is that like no matter how strange our interactions with each other become in the future, they are always going to be characterized, however indirectly, by A need to be with each other, a need to connect with one another. 59:30.692 --> 01:00:20.830 And the backdrop for that, getting back to the building a little bit, is the— just because I did, I did the basest amount of research on the Xining Public Housing Building. Whoops, sorry, muted myself. A 16-story mixed-use building on the outskirts of a ritzy part of Taipei was built in 1981. Mostly it was used for low-income housing, though locals consider it haunted because there were supposedly as many as 30, quote unquote, unnatural deaths. Excuse me, deaths of unnatural causes. Attributed to that building over the course of its 42-year span. I did not look up to see if it's still standing, but in 2024, Simon Leong actually did. It's I guess it's like a documentary. I'm not sure if it has a narrative on the building because he used it in several of his projects. It's not available to watch anywhere. Just makes the like festival circuits now and then. So maybe it'll come around to one of our markets eventually. But it's another classic. 01:00:20.878 --> 01:00:24.471 Simon Leong fucking loves haunted shit. Like there are ghosts in all of his movies. 01:00:24.888 --> 01:02:05.920 And that's what I was going to connect it to was like what else we've seen from him. is it's wet, it's like urban, it's in decay, but it's so— what I remember from the other movies we've discussed and just the ones we've seen, um, is that it's so like constructed, so purpose-built, and so fucking lonely. Like you go from floor to floor to floor and the only other people you see sometimes are either like in this movie, um, horribly diseased with whatever's gonna, you know, the Taiwan virus as they call it in this movie, um, or, you know, they're there to do business and they don't end up doing business. They just wander through your store and and not buy anything, uh, or they're there to confront you about something, you know. And it's not a whole lot of drama. You just leave the area once the fumigators come through, or, um, you know, you confront the shop owner about what he's doing in his apartment above yours, and then you don't talk again. It's like this horrible no man's land is outside of your door. And I think that's why it's so important that we do stay within the confines of this building. We don't really get a sense for the world around. The rain has this effect of reminding you what's, uh, like, that there is a world out there, but also of completely sheeting the rest of the world. It's like there's a blanket around the building that you cannot see out of. You get a few of the other documents in the building, you get an idea that there is some kind of— it's not a society, but it is a community of some sort that they just don't talk to each other. I just find it such a perfect distillation of the kind of cold, supposedly open and for human living and human interaction and the closeness of— it's almost a parallel for the sort of technology and insinuations about what the 2000s were going to do to us as humans and how we would connect with each other. These people live so closely together, they are so densely packed, and they could not be further away. There are hundreds of movies you could point to for examples of this. 01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:06.161 Yeah. 01:02:06.161 --> 01:02:27.247 Excuse me, but I just think there's something about how intentionally like dank and lonely he makes these spaces across all of his movies that, yeah, it feels like, I don't know how many more are shot in Sheeney Public Housing, but they all kind of feel of a piece with this same building. I find it— I'm enthralled with how this movie looks because of the way that it's shot in this specific space. 01:02:27.247 --> 01:04:50.573 Yeah. And I would say loneliness is almost the prevailing theme in his films. Right. And I think that like he is— and again, I haven't seen all of his movies. Right. I think I've maybe seen only one more than you have, Jason. I've also seen What Time Is It There? there, which, by the way, is a fucking masterpiece. Everybody should see that movie as well. Yeah, I might like it more than this movie. I like all of his movies that I've seen quite a bit. But I think that, like, I think that that is the dichotomy that he is creating, is that he is simultaneously fascinated by how, you know, existentially, given that we are the conscious animals, right, that live on the planet, like, predisposed toward loneliness. I would maybe even argue, as I think he maybe argues, that like loneliness is sort of like the fundamental experience of being a human being, right? Because you have an inner life that nobody else can access, that you will be stuck with for your entire life. I think that is something that he is obsessed with to the point of distraction, right? Is the way in which all human beings are fundamentally alone. And yet we spend all of our time trying to connect with each other. other, even though we are uniquely bad at it, right? In ways like this movie shows, right? Like, you know, I— even though we are all people who are fundamentally alone, who live in lonely circumstances, who are hurtling into an even lonelier millennia, right? Uh, we are going to spend our time smashing holes in our apartment to try to get at one another, right? Even, even though, like, it's a, it's a backwards, stupid thing to do, and it's going to lead to Frustration and heartbreak and and disease in many cases. It's I think that like that is the dichotomy that that Simon Leong is sort of like obsessed with, right? Is that like what is it about people that even though like fundamentally we are lonely people, fundamentally we are isolated, all we care about is is being with one another, right? And to the point where even if like even under like the maybe the most radical circumstances imaginable, all our subconscious wants is to have this connection that we have with one another, you know? Yeah. I think he finds that really, really like beautiful. And so do I. I mean, I think I agree. Right. And it leads to, you know, the ending, which I don't— we don't necessarily have to get to right away. 01:04:50.573 --> 01:05:01.873 No, I— that's where I was going to pivot to anyway. I was going to toss to Aaron because you brought it up as like part of the movie that you did like and see a good bit in. Tell me about what stuck with you about the ending or how it felt to get to where we got to there. 01:05:01.873 --> 01:05:28.830 I mean, it's just a sort of a beautiful— one of the only works of slow cinema that's not just sort of ending on a very crushing note, right? Like, I think this is very comparable to Bela Tarr's The Turin Horse, which is about a similar-ish sort of apocalyptic scenario. And that movie is just like 3 hours of just— maybe 4 hours of just it slowly getting worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. 01:05:28.830 --> 01:05:29.086 Yeah, I think. 01:05:29.086 --> 01:06:07.507 No bright spots ever, nothing bright about it. You know, this ending with, you know, the woman being kind of carried up through the hole with the glass of water, with the final shot of them sort of kind of dancing together. You know, it is this sort of— I don't know about triumphant because, you know, things are still a bit of a bummer, but it is this vaguely triumphant sort of statement about, you know, human connection persevering through all the shit going on in the world and maybe even kind of coming about as a result of, you know, this is sort of a movie about like mutual annoyance. 01:06:07.507 --> 01:06:09.105 Yes, 100%. 01:06:09.105 --> 01:06:15.323 Due to proximity slowly turning into like acceptance and human connection. And I think that like the— 01:06:15.323 --> 01:06:20.051 And hardship, right? I mean, like these people are both suffering and that is a big part of what brings them together. 01:06:20.051 --> 01:06:37.475 The woman built a literal fort in her apartment, which she lives in alone, you know, to hide in. So it's— I— yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's like a little blunt, but I think it's like a very sort of sweeping romantic, almost like classically romantic sort of moment that works quite well. 01:06:37.475 --> 01:06:59.018 I think so too. It's, it's consummative. It might not be like victorious. It might not feel like, you know, riding into the sunset, but it feels like, yeah, we've sort of finally met each other, uh, in, in, in a more pure sense than I confronted you at your shop about your piss leaking down into my apartment, or you, you know, because you don't know how to talk to people anymore, you started pouring water through the hole that I'm taping. 01:06:59.018 --> 01:07:05.872 This is what Jason did the year we lived together. This is exactly what happened. I eventually punched a hole in his wall and then we, we made up. 01:07:05.872 --> 01:07:10.141 My leg, it did hurt to fit it through that hole. I appreciate the effort. 01:07:10.141 --> 01:07:12.628 It wasn't his leg sticking through, pal, I'll tell you that much. 01:07:12.994 --> 01:07:13.366 much. 01:07:13.430 --> 01:07:14.513 Pandemic years were— 01:07:14.513 --> 01:07:18.584 They were weird times. Anyway, Harry. 01:07:18.584 --> 01:08:34.571 I mean, I think the bluntness works and I agree. It's a, you know, it's an obvious metaphor, but it works because it's so fucking cathartic, right? And I also think that that is an important part of this movie, right? Is that like the connection was not natural or easily won. It involved literally smashing through a concrete apartment floor. Right. And then like slowly, agonizingly bringing her up into and sticking your foot down through this hole, right? And it's sort of like, I like, it feels like relief, right? It feels like literally quenching your thirst, right? Which is, which is the water metaphor. First, before he brings her up, he hands her down water. And also like, you know, to Aaron's point, it's really cool that like water being this pervasive, annoying and problem throughout the movie, then all of a sudden it's reframed as something that, like, you know, you'd almost forgotten. But it's the most obvious truth in the world that it's also something we all need, right? We all need to drink water, otherwise we're going to die. And it's sort of like, that's literally like he is quenching her thirst in more ways than one, right? Because like, we also need this social connection. Yes. And Jason's wiggling his eyebrows. There's the horniness element to this as well, obviously. 01:08:34.571 --> 01:09:43.430 It is not unexpected, as Harry's saying, but it is— I read that sort of— there's one musical number where the gentleman appears, the gentleman upstairs appears in the musical number, even though she's clearly the one having the fantasy. I forget exactly what scene it follows up on, but I remember the flow of it being they're sort of exposed to each other for the first time outside of the confines of the hole between their apartments. And then she gets into this scene of like, I want literally like, I want you, I'm sort of desirous of you. And he's in that one again in like a very greaser '50s look. But then at the end is like the first one where it feels like he's probably having the same fantasy at the same time. And like they sort of see each other through this thing, through this fantasy, and they're in it together. Is there any room? Is it stupid to suggest that she dies of the virus and that's her dying dream is being with this guy, that it's not actually that he redeems her, that he saves her, that he consummates that teasing relationship that they've been building over the course of the movie. Is there room for it to be interpreted as more of a downer than an upper ending, or is that totally just not supported? 01:09:43.430 --> 01:09:48.910 I could see it. I don't know how supported it is necessarily, but that is an interesting deconstructive reading. I mean— 01:09:48.910 --> 01:09:50.306 I don't want it to be be that way either. 01:09:50.306 --> 01:10:38.603 I mean, I, you could, you could kind of read the, the dancing sequences as, as a ghost, right? Too. I mean, this is literally a haunted space. And so I think you're right. I mean, I think that like there is a sense in which like there is desperation here, right? That, that, that would support, right? Especially because like what ends up happening in this is not necessarily like literally something that makes a lot of sense, right? Like, why wouldn't he just go downstairs? Why wouldn't he just knock on the door? Why is he breaking through like this? But, but so I think you're right. Like, even if she, if she passes away, if that's what really happens, the metaphor is retained, right? Like, it's this idea that, like, he made his way through to her. And, like, maybe that is— it's, it's interesting. Like, it— would that make him the disease then on this reading? 01:10:38.603 --> 01:11:08.804 I think, I think that's kind of where, you know, if I'm bending my mind into a way that I wouldn't naturally read it, I read it as, you Yes, they are finally sort of truly seeing with a capital S each other through this, through this, this thing that they've been doing over the last weeks, however long the course of this movie takes. But if we're reading it in another way, in a more, you know, we'll say negative perception of how they're actually relating to each other, then yeah, I think the implication would be that he is a thing that's actually bad for her in some way, that he's, you know, the virus, I guess, so to speak. 01:11:08.804 --> 01:11:24.142 And I think what I like about that, whether or not I read the movie that way necessarily, is that I think that there is a threat, right? He does represent risk in a literal sense in that like when you're around somebody else, presumably your chances of getting the disease are higher, right? 01:11:24.142 --> 01:11:24.703 Right, right. 01:11:24.703 --> 01:12:05.897 And also like he is trying to penetrate her isolation, right? He's literally trying to smash his way into her life. I mean, again, I think that like ultimately this movie is about embracing that and about connecting with one another and about how we need that. But I think it's interesting and important that it leaves open the fact that like it's not always good, right? It's, it can be, it can be scary and risky to connect with other people. And like, that's why it's sympathetic to her wanting to be alone. I think that's, you know, it's, it's a movie that leaves open the fact that like there's a reason why things got here, right? They got to be the dire place that they are. It just so happens that there is also this other part of ourselves that we'll never be able to turn off that is going to be pushing us into one another. 01:12:05.897 --> 01:13:20.806 I think it's a It could be more complicated. It could be more, I guess, winding and longer. I don't think that would make it better as a movie. I think it really does pare down to, even though a lot of this seems extraneous with like his cat and the other people in the apartment building and the musical numbers and stuff, some stuff seems at first glance a little extraneous, a little maybe aside the point of the relationship that's building between these 2 people. But by the end, it really does. I think it makes the best use of all of its like 95 minutes or whatever it is. It's Highly recommend this movie. If you can see it at the Trilon— well, no, you won't be able to. Never mind. Check it out wherever you can. I'm sure that the recent remaster will be coming to you soon, or it'll be available on the internet somewhere. That, I think, is where we can probably stitch up the conversation, as long as you two feel like the tank is empty. We do have a couple segments here that we end the podcast with. The Junk Drawer is the first one. I'm going to open that puppy up, and it goes like that for any thoughts that didn't fit as part of the main conversation. Eric, Aaron, when we were talking about Wong Kar-wai's movies, you had the Aaron Grossman filmed— excuse me, Wong Kar-wai Film Department Quality Index. Do you have one of those for the Aaron Grossman Tsai Ming-liang Film Department Quality Index for this? Because there are a couple of real indexable apartments in this movie. 01:13:20.806 --> 01:14:20.174 Yeah, that was— so that was a sort of a, you know, kind of a running bit about like taking a look at the interior spaces in Wong Kar-wai's movies and like sort of pitching them as like representative of what's going on with the characters and the films as a whole. I think the thing with these films is that every single movie that we see Li Keqiang in as a, you know, part of the film for director Tsai Ming-Liang, sort of the same kind of apartment, if not literally Although maybe literally, I don't know, but like at least spiritually sort of the same apartment. You could say maybe some sort of stagnation. I think a lot of his films are about stagnation and trying to get out of that. So there's something there. But like, I don't know, this apartment's very similar. These both these apartments, I guess, are very similar to the one in Rebels of the Neon God. I haven't seen his other films. I'm going to try and get to it. 01:14:20.174 --> 01:14:20.914 Mm-hmm. 01:14:21.917 --> 01:14:28.603 I don't know, Harry, is this, is this the sort of locales you can expect from watching more of this director's films, would you say? 01:14:28.603 --> 01:15:12.206 Yeah, I would say that his character in What Time Is It There lives in a more handsomely furnished apartment with his mom, but similar for sure. And then, yeah, I think that there's also a lot of rain in that movie as well. That's kind of one of his big themes. It's interesting. That movie also takes place not in Taiwan, Taiwan. I— the, the main character, the main woman goes abroad and watching the contrast between his portrayal of Taiwan and his portrayal of elsewhere, I think it's France maybe, is really interesting too. So it's not— Tsai Ming-Liang's whole world doesn't look like this is, I guess, what I'm trying to say. It might just be his Taipei specifically in an interesting way. 01:15:12.206 --> 01:16:45.307 I like the lens of the Film Department Quality Index for this movie because There is an unequal relationship between them that is like, to get metatextual, that is like sort of demanded by the conditions around them in that like he is an apartment above her. The more he stagnates, the less he does, the more he ignores her, the less she can ignore him, the more she's pulled toward him whether she likes it or not. We learn that she does like it through her fantasies and through the ending. But like he intentionally pours water through it, but even if he doesn't, Water can leak through there. The less that he maintains that apartment, the more negatively it impacts her. Almost everything that's going wrong with her apartment can be attributed to him. Probably she wouldn't have had the cockroach problem if he didn't have that hole cracked open and if he wasn't a more respectful upstairs neighbor. I think both spaces come to embody each of them, but moreover, the hole that separates them is a perfect metaphor for both of their condition, the relationship that they have, the flow of, I don't know, emotion, the flow of care and concern, the flow of intimacy and desire is completely unequal between them. And it's specifically because of the format of one of them is above the other and there's a hole. I know I'm just repeating the main thesis of the movie, but when I think about it in terms of if we're personifying the spaces between these people, excuse me, each of these people's spaces, then the space between them is a third separate space. that itself has a personality as like a conduit between them. 01:16:45.307 --> 01:17:04.549 No, I think it's really important that he's above her. Right. And that like literally shit and piss is flowing down into her apartment. Right. Like Siming Liang could have, could have made the hole horizontal. Right. They could have been next-door neighbors, but they're not. And that's really important. Right. Like that. It's, it's meaningful. 01:17:04.549 --> 01:17:16.857 I know it. Like, I'm laughing, but it's, it's absolutely true. Like, you could probably tell a very similar story in a much more normal way, but it would not be as interesting. You know, it wouldn't be the dynamics that this movie reaches for. 01:17:16.857 --> 01:17:38.247 And I think that, that those dynamics then we have to read as thematic, right? Like, it's, it's important that this dude is impugning on her. It's important that, like, the shit is flowing down into her apartment and she's annoyed about it, right? Like, that is also a part of the human connection that we need, frustrating though it may be, right? Like, being frustrated by each other is also part of being human. 01:17:40.688 --> 01:17:47.158 That's all I had for my junk drawer was to prompt Aaron for his junk drawer. Were there any other junk drawer thoughts from the crew that didn't fit as part of the main conversation? 01:17:47.158 --> 01:18:06.454 Shoutouts to the cat. Very good cat in this movie. Oh yeah. Being taken care of. It's a real literal save the cat moment, but he does save the cat from fumigation at a certain point in this movie, which I was happy to see because I always get very concerned when a cat is on screen. Just whenever a cat's on screen, that was the end of it. I'm always concerned. 01:18:07.519 --> 01:18:20.613 Starts to worry you. I will transition us then to what will end up being the final segment of this show. And I'm only including this because there are so few— there are only 2 movies that we've covered from the year 1998 before. 01:18:20.613 --> 01:18:21.850 It's kind of surprising. 01:18:21.850 --> 01:18:39.829 I almost couldn't believe it. But if either of you gets even one of them, I will end the podcast with our quick outro. You will not have to suffer through trying to guess the rest. To All the Loves We've Tried Before from 1998. Can either of you wager a guess? guess as to a movie we've covered, one of the 2 from the year 1988. Excuse me, 1998. My apologies. 01:18:39.829 --> 01:18:41.849 I can because I looked it up. 01:18:41.849 --> 01:18:45.190 You— fuck you. Okay, you don't get to guess. Harry? 01:18:45.190 --> 01:18:47.164 Can I get a hint? 01:18:47.164 --> 01:18:52.379 They both have guests on them. Okay. 01:18:53.010 --> 01:18:54.416 Is that a hint, Aaron, what you're doing? 01:18:54.416 --> 01:19:01.437 They are not. They are not within the last 5 years. What is he doing? 01:19:01.437 --> 01:19:07.201 I think he's— it's like a— it's like a fish of some kind. Is that what you're doing? Fish? 01:19:07.201 --> 01:19:12.998 This doesn't align to any, uh, either of— oh, what the fuck are you talking about? 01:19:12.998 --> 01:19:14.154 He's misdirecting me. 01:19:14.234 --> 01:19:17.221 If you would name the fish something, what would you name the fish? 01:19:17.221 --> 01:19:19.115 What would you have named the fish? 01:19:19.115 --> 01:19:20.271 What would be a name for a fish? 01:19:20.271 --> 01:19:20.512 Wanda. 01:19:20.512 --> 01:19:23.948 Am I fucking up? The name of the movie. Yes, it's a fish called Wanda. 01:19:24.029 --> 01:19:24.815 We call it a fish called Wanda. 01:19:25.316 --> 01:19:27.342 Yeah, not— that was not 1998. 01:19:27.342 --> 01:19:29.111 No, did I? 01:19:29.352 --> 01:19:31.554 Oh, you got it wrong, man. 01:19:31.554 --> 01:19:35.200 I even corrected myself to say 1998 several times. 01:19:35.200 --> 01:19:43.218 Oh, sorry, you said 19— okay, my bad. All right, well, I Googled it based on what you said, but it was the end of the millennium, so I should have figured that out. Let me go back. 01:19:43.349 --> 01:19:46.215 Okay, Harry, I— they've— it's got guests. 01:19:46.215 --> 01:19:48.104 Okay, that doesn't matter. 01:19:53.419 --> 01:19:58.884 You would think that it's a movie from one country based on this name, but it's not a movie from that country. 01:19:58.884 --> 01:20:03.241 Okay. I'm just— 01:20:03.241 --> 01:20:04.594 The worst hints of all time. 01:20:04.787 --> 01:20:14.416 Just, I mean, it's just— I mean, if I just say an actor's name, it'll be immediately— it'll be given away. If I say a director's name, it'll be immediately given away. 01:20:14.416 --> 01:20:18.700 And gosh, that would be— I mean, I mean, we couldn't deal with that, could we? 01:20:18.700 --> 01:20:26.650 Neither of these is about the new millennium. A briefcase features hugely in one of them. 01:20:26.650 --> 01:20:29.810 When does The Rocketeer come out? 1998. I can't— 01:20:29.810 --> 01:20:31.530 That was 1994 or '95, I think. 01:20:31.530 --> 01:20:37.970 All right. Yeah. We didn't cover them all. A briefcase. Oh, Pulp Fiction? No, Pulp Fiction was earlier than that. 01:20:37.970 --> 01:20:41.710 Yeah. No, it was '94. Yes, I think it was '96 actually. Now that you mention it. 01:20:47.891 --> 01:20:48.259 Jeez. 01:20:48.259 --> 01:21:06.366 Episode 47 on Ronin with our friend Dan Nagan from November 2019, and episode 126 on The Faculty with our friends Eric Leith and Seth Zerati from July 2021. That one got memory hold for me for sure. I can think of it when I— like, I can remember it when I think about it, but I would not have been able to play it. 01:21:06.366 --> 01:21:14.790 It's a good movie. Speaking of Terminator 2, Um, that guy is, is in that one. He's really good. Is that Robert Patrick? Is that his name? 01:21:14.790 --> 01:21:16.350 Is Robert Patrick in The Faculty too? 01:21:16.350 --> 01:21:17.150 Yeah. 01:21:17.150 --> 01:21:18.330 Gosh, I forgot that. 01:21:18.330 --> 01:21:27.130 He plays like the, the gym coach or something who's an alien, and he's so fucking good in it. He's so menacing. It rocks. He's kind of a weirdly underrated actor. 01:21:27.130 --> 01:21:38.650 There was that— I saw a little featurette clip on Instagram about how like he ran too fast for the scene where he's supposed to be chasing him out of the parking garage, and they're like, you got, you got to slow down. The car— the, the motorcycle can't move as fast as you can. 01:21:40.878 --> 01:21:41.440 Fuck yeah. 01:21:41.440 --> 01:22:40.946 Fucking Chad. All right, that is going to be the end of our podcast. Thank you so much for participating, everybody. Please go to trylon.org to get tickets and find out about future showings at the Trylon, including on movies we're going to cover, which we have posted about on our Instagram, Bluesky, Twitter, etc. You can please feel free to reach out to us there about any movies that you see on the schedule that don't have a star next to them. Those are ones that we're open to having guests on usually. So just reach out to us on Any of those platforms or at trylovepodcast@gmail.com. Remember, keep Cody in your thoughts. He's lying down now after a quick bout of Taiwan virus from receiving too much bug spray after you know interacting with one of those cockroaches. I learned that they're an asthma vector actually by playing a video game a few weeks ago. So keep keep your albuterol USB inhalers close, everybody. Cody is he's going to be fine, but he would really love to wake up to you having followed him on Blue. Blue Sky and Letterboxd at Cody Narvison. As for me, I just help make this show. You can find me on Twitter, Blue Sky, Letterboxd, wherever at Nintendoofus. Thank you so much for listening. 01:22:41.785 --> 01:22:44.694 I've been Harry Mack, and you can find me on Letterboxd at Shitake Harry. 01:22:46.380 --> 01:22:49.153 And I'm Aaron. Find me on Blue Sky at RB Please. 01:22:50.640 --> 01:25:02.290 我牛呀牛不不清清楚楚。 我 有 心 事， 不用 对 人 细 倾 诉。 只 要 鼓 声 响 身 体， 我 心 里 舒 服。 我就 可以 忘 掉 了 整 天 忙 碌。 到 晚上 也 不 放 糊 里 糊 涂。 O c aly p so, O c aly p so， 我 蹦 蹦 跳 跳 爱 c aly p so。 O c aly p so, O c aly p so， 你 不要 说 我 太 辛苦， 扭 呀 扭 呀， 扭 呀 扭 呀 跳 c aly p so。 Apocalypse, apocalypse. Boom, boom, boom, ciao, ciao, apocalypse. Apocalypse, apocalypse. You don't have to show off, you're so cool. 我 要 跳 克 莱 普 索。 你 不要 说 我 太 辛苦， 扭 呀 扭 呀， 扭 呀 扭 呀 跳 克 莱 普 索。 你 不要 说 我 太 辛苦， 扭 呀 扭 呀， 扭 呀 扭 呀 跳 克 莱 普 索。