Welcome to The Art Parlor for April, brought to you by Friends in Art! It's been a spell and we are very glad to be back!

Join us for an inspiring conversation with the creators of NVision Guitars, a mother-and-son team building custom adaptive guitars for musicians with disabilities. From tactile designs for blind players to ergonomic solutions for mobility challenges, their work is opening doors to music for everyone. Hear their story, their passion, and how they’re redefining accessibility in the arts.

AI-Generated Transcript

Jason Opinions expressed on ACB Media are those of the respective program contributors and cannot be assumed to serve as endorsements of products or views by Friends in Art, the American Council of the Blind, their elected officials, or staff. Friends in Art welcomes you to the Art Parlor, where visually impaired artists of all types will discuss their work. Pull up a chair, bring along your beverage of choice, and listen to thoughtful, stimulating conversations with visually impaired artists in all media and from all parts of the world. And now, here's your host, Anne Chiappetta.

Ann Welcome everyone to the Friends and Art, Art Parlor podcast. I'm Ann Chiappetta, your president, and I'm joined tonight by some special guests. But before I get to them, I also want to let you know that Meghan Downing, one of our board members, is here to help us welcome our guests from Envision Guitars. So we have Renee and Tristan. And I just want to welcome you guys. I know we had you featured on our blog at www.friendsinart.org/news. If anybody wants to go there and check you guys out for your interview. So welcome, welcome, welcome.

Renee Thank you. Thank you for allowing us to be here.

Ann Sure. So you're from Iowa, right?

Tristan Yep, we're from Ankeny, Iowa. So just a suburb outside of Des Moines.

Ann So my new guide dog's name is Iowa, by the way. So really?

Tristan Really? How did you know?

Ann He was born in the I litter. And that's the name that they picked. So. Oh, okay. Yeah. I just thought that was a little, a cute little thing to let you guys know. Before we get into like the questions, could you give us a little bit of your history, how you started your business and maybe some of the reasons why? Sure, yeah, absolutely.

Renee Well, Tristan started playing guitar when he was about 10 years old. And he's always had a love for guitar and played it and kind of messed around with building guitars all through high school. And anyway, about a year and a half, two years ago, I was having some health issues and Tristan was taking me back and forth to Mayo. And we just really got into some deep talks about life and the purpose of life. And I had recently retired from the military. So I had been running a Christmas decorating business that I had to actually quit due to the health issues. And so we were just talking over just what the future holds for both of us actually. And I said, you know, what would make you the happiest? What do you think would you would find most purpose in? And he said, I would find most purpose in building guitars. And that was just kind of out of the blue because I never knew that he actually just wanted to build guitars for a living. And I said, Well, you know, what's stopping you from doing that? And he said, I don't know. And I said, Well, what would that look like? And so we brainstormed on up to Mayo and we talked about how my dad, who was a quadriplegic, had went to Easter Seals and gotten training on leather making and he had gotten some tools from them and he had found his purpose through that. And then Tristan had shared with me that when he was younger, he used to play the guitar with his eyes closed because he was afraid that someday he may not be able to see and he was afraid that he may not be able to play the guitar. And so he'd been doing that for some time. And just on that same vein, we brainstormed the idea of what if we made guitars for people who can't just pull a guitar off of the shelf of a box store and play it. So what if we made guitars for people who have challenges, maybe some low vision or maybe they're blind or maybe they're in a wheelchair and they have spatial considerations or Parkinson's. You know, there's a variety of different challenges face where they can't just take a guitar, like I said, off of the shelf. And you know, as we dug into it, we realized there's actually nothing like that. There's nothing like that out there. There's guitars that look like tech toys, and there's guitars that maybe they have, you know, some tactile markers on them with glue or some homemade type of fashioned material to allow people to kind of use it, but nothing's actually made for people with these challenges. And we thought, well, why won't we, you know, we could do that. And so we have developed various adaptations for our guitars and we built a business around it. And that's what we do. So Tristan is the luthier and I do the management, the sales, the marketing. He of course helps me with a lot of that as well. But he's our guitar maker and our technical expert. And I try to help anywhere that I can to free up his time so that he can do what he does best.

Ann Wow. So Tristan, how did you learn your craft?

Tristan It wasn't necessarily like a linear learning system, I would say. A lot of times with a kind of niche craft like that, you have to really stretch out your arms to whoever you can get information from that will really benefit your ability. So whether that's from reaching out to local Luthiers and local shops, to ask them how can we get better at our craft, what are we missing, what are the things that we're nailing, countless hours of watching YouTube videos and different tutorials, and then a lot and a lot of practice in the garage and trials and errors and learning from those errors. So it's a very compound kind of learning for it. you have to pull from just multiple different sources.

Ann Do you feel that some of this is like natural for you in eight? And then some of it is, you know, you've got to learn how to hone your craft. Do you feel like you were, you were kind of like, you had it in you, you just had to get it, get it to the point where you, you know, get it out there.

Tristan And definitely, yeah, I think that I think that it's one of those things that when you have a passion for something, you're going to find a way to make it so you know how to do it. But so I don't think that it necessarily takes like someone that has these innate abilities compared to another. It's who's willing to put in the hard work and who's actually passionate about what they're doing. So it's, you can apply it to anything that anyone's passionate about. It's just the ability to keep moving forward with it and keep persisting even while you're waiting.

Ann Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I have a curious little weird question. Are you the one that drinks the monsters while you're working? because there's a picture in the background. The monster drinks are there.

Tristan I've been trying to cut down on that a little bit. But yeah.

Renee To be fair, even though they're completely not what I would recommend, Tristan was working a full-time job up until not too long ago. So he was working the full-time job while doing a vision.

Jason Oh, wow.

Renee He was sleeping literally about four hours a night. Yeah, I was sleeping like four to five hours a night for a good year. Yeah, but we finally were blessed with the opportunity to go full time. And so he's been getting more sleep. So OK.

Ann That's pretty good. I was. Well, yeah. Sometimes I didn't expect that to be described on the photo when I put him put it through my describer and I was like, oh, it was really cute. Anyway, Megan, do you have any questions?

Meghan Yeah. Hi, guys. I'm Megan. It's nice to be on this call with you. I love so far what I'm hearing and learning about what you guys are doing. I guess I want to give a little bit of background on kind of where I fit into this a little bit, but I'm blind. I started losing my vision when I was nine to a progressive eye condition. I'm 24 now, so it's been a little bit over half my life now since I've lost my vision. I started playing fiddle when I was like four, and then music was always something like I could do Well, my vision was decreasing as I got older. And so I just love your mission of like figuring out ways for people with any ability to be able to play music, because I think music is one of those things where it's accessible to like everyone, whether it's listening or playing. And this process of losing my vision and music helping me through that led me to I went to Berkeley College of Music, And I actually play guitar. I went to Berkeley for guitar.

Renee That's awesome.

Meghan Yes, big fans of Berkeley. Yeah, I was really blessed to be able to-- I was like my dream school. And I started playing guitar when I was younger as well. It was probably my second or third instrument I started playing and fell in love with guitar. And so I kind of put the fiddle aside. And guitar is my main passion. So when Annie told me you guys were coming on and I learned about what you guys were doing, I was like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. because I actually, I studied, I'm a music therapist.

Jason And so I work with folks all that like literally

Meghan every single day that could use products like what you guys are doing. I worked in like neuro rehabilitation with stroke patients and I still work with people who are brain injured. And it's funny that you said something about, you know, I just got a grant from the Christopher Reeves Foundation to do a project with people with paralysis. And I know that you mentioned your dad was a quadriplegic and I'm working a lot with those folks right now or I'm about to start. So I'm like really interested in what you guys are doing and I would love to know like if you found a way to adapt for people with extreme paralysis and like what your process is for, for kind of like hearing about people's abilities and how you like can adjust with those disabilities and how like the process goes of making those guitars.

Tristan Okay. Yeah, so as far as full paralysis, that's not something that we have gone to quite yet. As far as spatial accommodation, the way that we try to account for that is we take measurements of the different parts of the space that the guitar will really be making contact with the individual. So we'll take use of different contour gauges to get a general sense of what space is available to put for the curvature of the guitar and then applying it in there so that way it fits that individual within their space.

Renee That's really cool. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry. We offer four different adaptable customizations. So can you explain those?

Tristan Yeah. I mean, so we do have a few different adaptions that we're trying to really implement into our instruments to help with just different things that could really make you not be able to enjoy guitar as much as just a kind of store guitar, I guess you could say. So as far as spatial accommodation, it was the contour gauges. The other thing that we take into account is weight reduction, so chambering out the body so that way there's not as much stress on the body when playing. Another thing that we really have been diving into is the tactile markers on our guitar for low vision and blindness. What we've been really focusing on is putting fret markers on the back of the neck that we'll make it so you can really just navigate where your hand is playing on the fretboard. just as you would usually use fret markers, but these would be more tactile for the back of your thumb to kind of guide your hand. Then along with that, we add different components to the guitar itself for better navigation. So our different knobs will use two different textured knobs for the volume compared to the tone. So that way as you're navigating which knob you're wanting to activate, it's just a little bit quicker from the feel of it.

Meghan Oh, that's huge. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Because that's something I really struggle with, getting a new guitar or playing someone else's guitar or even my own guitars that I've had forever. I forget, you know, like which one's the tone or which one's the volume. And yeah, that's super, that's amazing to hear what you guys are doing with that, especially with low vision.

Tristan Yep. Our goal is just to make it so it's a navigatable guitar. And so that way you can really just get the same feeling whether you're getting the vision of the fretboard itself or not.

Meghan And do you notice that like when you make these adaptations, especially with like the size or the weight reduction, do you notice like, how are you kind of combating the loss of maybe like tone or volume of the, the like resonance of the guitar? Yeah. Yeah.

Tristan So right now our guitars are exclusively electric guitars. We will be getting into acoustics and nylons down the road. It's just with a time constraint of having a full time job at the time and then also building the guitars, I wasn't able to get into acoustics and nylons where that weight reduction would affect more of that tone. - Yeah. - Since a lot of them are running through your pickups. Don't get me wrong, there probably is some tonal drop off from the chambering, but since a lot of it is from the hardware and from the really the electronics that you put within the guitar that has I would say kind of more of an influence on what sound you're going to get out of it.

Meghan Oh yeah that totally that totally makes sense. Wow and and then are you for like future in the expansion of what you guys are doing like obviously you kind of just mentioned how you're doing full time work with Envision now, but how what do you see what are your goals for the future of

Tristan where you guys are headed? Yeah, um, so our goal is to it's really what we're doing now and it's uh to keep creating guitars for anybody and everybody that wants to be able to play them. So whether it's the player that is has a 13 guitar collection that wants something just really special to them or if it's someone who needs this tool so that way they can pursue their passion that they've been going for. Really, what we would mark as successful is just the people that we get to connect with and the difference that we get to make.

Meghan And are you guys getting funding from grants right now? Are you able to apply for those? Where are you getting the resources that you need to be able to function right now?

Tristan I would say it's a very mixed bag. So yes, we do the guitars as our main exclusive thing, but we do have some supporting pieces of our business that we call our different arms just to make it so we are able to focus on the guitars. So whether that's selling handmade picks, different, we also hit a lot of different vendor shows for some of our other handmade art and stuff like that.

Renee Right now we don't have any grants or any, there's no funding coming in besides what we sell. And what I've been doing to kind of get this up and going is I've been hand carving picks made out of the wood from the scraps of his guitars. I know it sounds very tedious and it is, but that's what moms do. So I hand etched them and they do very well at the craft shows. And it kind of opened the doors for some of the guitar stores. Like I would go in and offer up these picks and then we were able to get our guitars into stores. Right now, believe it or not, we are really donating a lot of our products. 10% of our sales go to donations to nonprofits in our area. Um, so I wouldn't say it's extremely lucrative for us, but that's okay because that's not really our purpose. And we, we have a different purpose in mind and we have a different outlook, I think. And so we're just moving straight ahead with that and we'll get there when we do. So if that makes sense, I hope that makes sense.

Meghan Oh yeah. Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Ann Yeah. So this is Annie. I was reading about your picks. Can you tell us a little more about how that began? Like you talked about making them out of nuts. - Oh yeah, yeah, I did that too.

Renee Yep. So I make the picks out of wood and nuts. So the wood ones, of course, like I said, came from the offshoots of his guitar. So we've got Ebony, you know, some of the harder woods. - Right. - You can such. And then also I've been making them out of Tagua nuts and they're really, really cool. They're a nut from South Africa and they are very, very similar to animal ivory in terms of strength and-- - Wow. - And so obviously we can't use animal ivory nor should we, but if you were to compare it, it's similar in, it's cellulose, right? So it's very hard and it's not something you're gonna break. It's organic vegan, all the good stuff. And it just kind of forms to your thumb and finger when you're using it. And then at times there's certain ones that I cut the center out of so that you can have a better grip should you have issues with grip. But those are really hot seller to be honest with you. We sell out of those pretty quick. And so the nut is sliced and then I just sand it down using five different kinds of sandpaper. And then we sell those as well. And that's something that we're doing now and we may continue to do that but really we want to focus only on guitars but for right now, That's one of the things that we do to get us where we're going. Right. Right. Because we've only been doing this for one year as a business. And so we're building up to where we want to go. Yeah. And it's just a big way of helping.

Ann Yeah. It's like you do what you can, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I had a question about like how much can you, in terms of weight for one of guitars, how much can you take out without compromising the guitars, you know, working and performing and...

Tristan Yeah, definitely. So right now, we're finishing our chamber guitars at about around seven pounds. Eventually we're going to start making headless guitars as well, which will really bring down the weight. But right now, they sit around seven pounds if not a little bit lighter, which is usually about a pound or two lighter than your standard guitar that you would get from a store?

Ann Wow. Wow. That's very interesting because that's one of the things that I don't think people understand about electric guitars, that they're heavy. They're heavy. You pick one up and they're, you know, you've got to be able to like build up your muscles and you know, your body and so how, you know, I was very interested in that. If you adapted one of these guitars for someone who is in a wheelchair, is there anything else that you use with the guitar, like a mat that goes across their lap or something that grips or anything like that to help keep it balanced from sliding or if they can't do a strap?

Tristan Yeah. So we haven't done anything like that quite yet. The way that we really go about accommodating for those spatial accommodations is by using our contour gauges. So we'll take a contour measurement of both of their legs as well as the surrounding area and then a one across their sternum as well to know where the actual wood of the body will be sitting across you to make sure it is conformed to your figure.

Ann Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Renee Yeah. Sorry. I'm sorry. - Oh, go ahead. - It's very, very ergonomically fit to any individual's body. You can--

Tristan

• It's got three different playing positions. So you have a upright playing position, a cross lap playing position, and then you can also put it across your other leg. So it is versatile in the way that you can have it within a seated space. And then along with getting the measurements of the individual, that really just helps accommodate for what we're shooting for.

Ann Oh, wow. Have you ever considered making a video that explains, you know, like, you know, the different positions and then demo them? Have you ever considered that?

Tristan

• We are working on that. We're trying to get more and more content out about how we adapt the guitars. Right now it is kind of a two-armed business in a way with them, 'cause we have our player guitars that we do put out in the stores, but then we have our augmented guitars as well that we have these adaptions to. So it's really just us having more time to keep pushing out the information that we're working on.

Renee

• One of the things that one of our clients that was blind really appreciated that we came up with was, we had a client in New Jersey and we have three models. We have the Regatta, we have the Galley, and then we have the Symbiote. And so what we did in order for them to be able to understand the contours of each guitar was we built miniature versions of those guitars and we sent them the templates in the mail and they had holes in them to designate which guitars they were. So they were able to feel all the different contours and how those guitars were built and then communicate back to us, you know, which ones would be best for them and then they could just toss those instead of, you know, like mailing anything back to us or what have you because They were made out of basswood and they were very cheap templates. And then that was just a good way for them to be able to communicate to us. So in our we send these packages with the templates and the gauges so people can easily take you know, measurements of their body and send us back the contours and throw away the templates. And we're trying to make it as easy as possible, but also making it so that people can really get exactly what they want. Because I mean, everybody's needs are going to be different. Everybody's situation is different. And so that that was just something that they really, they really liked about it.

Ann That's a really good idea.

Renee Yeah, that's a great idea. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, it really worked out well. So that's, that's excellent.

Ann How many guitars do you have out in the hands of other people right now?

Renee We have about nine.

Meghan Oh, cool. And that's including like guitars sold for like able-bodied folks and also adapted guitars.

Tristan Correct. Yep. That would be the ones that we donated as well as the ones that we made for just other clients.

Renee We're working on five more right now. But again, we have only been in business for one year because we opened last March and he was working full time until a month ago. So we have been struggling to find the time, but we have been working 24/7 to develop these designs because every single model was developed, like we designed and developed them all. And so once we get these next five out, we'll be up to 14, but we know that they're going to continue to grow. And the word has to get out, that's the thing, is the word has to get out that these are even available because nowhere else are these available. They have not been available. And just show that they're out there, then we can start making them. And so we're not afraid of the fact that we've only made nine, because we just have to make sure that people know that to get the message out, basically is what we need to do.

Ann

• Yeah, well, you gotta start somewhere, right? - You do. (laughing)

Meghan

• So I was just thinking, I have so many, I'm like, this is so exciting. It's music to my ears to hear what you guys are doing, 'cause I'm gonna spread the word about you guys and hopefully get more information because I think so many people, when they have a disability, they just like, initially are like, "Oh, I can't do that because of this." But I think as more people become aware of, everything can be adapted. And I love that you guys are starting off. And the fact that you did nine in a year is amazing.

Renee

• Oh, thank you very much. Tristan just developed a guitar for Parkinson's. And-- - Wow.

Tristan

• I wouldn't, yeah, it's, we're taking all the considerations that would really affect your ability to play and trying to instill those into the instrument.

Renee

• Yeah, and so he'll be presenting that at a conference on April 22nd. And so we're really excited about that one too. So that's kind of exciting for us. So that's kind of a new development that we've got going on.

Ann

• Could you talk a little bit more about the adaptations in terms of Parkinson's symptoms and how they would help somebody to play?

Tristan

• Yeah, so when doing research, the things that we really tried to hone in on were the slowness of movement. I believe it's called a Brady, I'm not gonna try to remember the word, I'm gonna totally butcher it. (laughing) It's a slowness of movement as well as the squeeze and the hands and then along with that you have--

Meghan

• The tremors.

Tristan

• The tremors and the strength of holding the instrument. - Right, yeah. - So some of the accommodations that we're gonna start to implement into this guitar to present would be things like having a shorter scale length. So that way you have larger frets that are not, that way your hand isn't as needed to move around to make the same kind of music, having a multi-scale fretboard, so that way the frets move ergonomically with how your hand would normally go across the fretboard.

Meghan

• Wow.

Tristan

• Lighter weight, so changing up the body as well to make it, so it's just a, you can play it longer for a longer duration of time without it really starting to affect your ability to play. But the thing that we're getting really excited to present about is some of the just kind of modifications that you can do to your own instruments as well as just different techniques that you can do to really help implement just timed playing and everything like that. So one thing we're excited to kind of just really talk about and promote is timed practice with people who are starting to get symptoms of Parkinson's just 'cause you can start with a metronome at a lower BPM and it's not like you're shredding or anything but you're playing a interval note and it's in control And then as you bring up that metronome, you can really just start getting more and more control over that movement, at least over a fixed period of time. So that's something that we kind of wanted to talk about and just kind of spread the word about just 'cause even if you're not getting a guitar from us, but you wanna just be able to play your guitar, it's good information to have.

Ann

• Yeah.

Meghan

• Now there's a lot of research with Parkinson's and like music and music therapy. And it's like, it makes a huge difference in people's lives with Parkinson's.

Tristan

• A lot of studies have really just, really narrowed down the point of, it just benefits the quality of life. And we feel like when you're pursuing a passion, that really is benefiting your life in that way. So that's what we're doing next.

Ann

• Yeah. I think that's wonderful. Before I retired, I worked a lot with veterans and I had quite a few veterans with Parkinson's symptoms. And one of the things that they felt that they could continue to do, even though they had their music and they just connected with that kind of stuff. And they continued, one of them was a drummer and he found ways to keep up his response times and stuff like that. And I think if he hadn't been a drummer, maybe he would have slid into a symptomology even more. So there's definitely that physical component that keeps the mind active and engaged so you don't have that freeze time and that delay of response. And I think definitely there's this, I don't know, maybe I know how the mind works. We really don't know a lot about how the mind works, But I think there's this component of desire and wanting to do something, in that your creative brain that can really, can really help delay the on those symptoms. So you guys are on the right track with all of that for sure. And the only other, the only thing that I, there was when I lived in Westchester County, New York, there was the Westchester Music Conservatory. They did a healing music program for PTSD. It could have been PTSD from war trauma or from other types of stuff, any type of abuse or whatever. And that was the only program that I knew of like in New York state. I mean, and it was really popular. And we would send some of our veterans and stuff to them they did guitar and violin and keyboards for people. Yeah. But they didn't have adaptive equipment. They would be teaching people on regular stuff. So yeah, this is definitely something that's much, much needed. Have you ever approached the VA at all or the Veterans Administration or any types of veteran treatment centers with what you want to do that might be?

Renee I know that there, I'm in a couple of veterans groups that we follow on social media and such like that. The local VA has a few guitar groups where they get together and they jam and stuff like that. We want to do that. We just need to get our feet on the ground and going. And that is one of the places that we want to get involved in in our overall marketing strategy. But we have not yet fully. that I know there's some great opportunities to work with veterans and we will do that. We just need to, we need time is what we need. So we're just working on that right now.

Tristan

• Yeah, 'cause we went out officially full time about two weeks ago. (laughing) Now that we got the full time status, we're gonna be making a lot more moves a lot quicker. - Yeah. Tristan, what are you doing beforehand?

Meghan Like full time work before working?

Tristan

• Yeah, I used to be a manager for a family entertainment establishment.

Meghan

• Wow.

Tristan

• So it was about 50 hours a week on top of the

Renee

• Oh my God.

Tristan

• 100 hours that we were thinking about in vision. - Wow.

Renee

• Yeah, he would get home at 2.30 in the morning and then I'd call at eight and he didn't get to sleep till sometimes four. And like, okay, you ready? And you know, and so, yeah, it was a lot for him. And finally we were just like, we can't do this. we have to follow our passion. And we're just gonna take the risk and see where it leads us and this is what we're gonna do. So it's what we're doing.

Ann

• So what do you guys do when you're not doing this?

Jason

• Nothing. (laughing)

Tristan

• I was gonna say, we still try to maintain just the important values of life on top of it just to make sure that we ourselves are healthy individuals. So that way, just 'cause you can't, I feel like you can't do anything for anyone else unless you yourself are taken care of. So part of our work day is also making sure we get our regular workout routines in routine,

Jason making sure we're serving our community in some way

Tristan and then keeping our faith with us, with everything that we do, because without that, it really doesn't matter. - Yeah. So that's kind of when we're not doing that, we just focus on the parts of life that actually do matter. you know, that along with family time and all that fun jazz.

Renee

• Tristan and I get a lot of family time. (both laughing)

Ann I love that. - Yeah. So what else do you think that Friends in Art can do to help you out? I mean, we have, I mean, we'd love to do what we can for you, like just, you know, helping you promote stuff. I would really like to see us to, you know, be able to, I don't know how we could help you, but maybe we can work, we can do some brainstorming and.

Meghan I can think of like a hundred ways that I could. Yeah. So, okay, you guys have time or you're looking for more folks or anything like that, especially I got the privilege to work at Perkins School for the Blind for like eight months in Boston, and they have a big music therapy department. And so if you are looking for more folks that are fully blind or low vision, they have a lot of students that would benefit from you guys. So I'm happy to connect you with any of my people. But yeah, I agree with Annie if there's any way that friends in art can help you, let us know.

Tristan Yeah, no, we would love that. For us, it's the more people we can connect with the better because the work is there. We just need to be where the work is at and with individuals that need our services. So the more people that we can connect with and the more that we can really do our art for other people, that's what really benefits us the most. So we always can find the time to meet with you, meet with other people because unless we do, we're not going to be able to help the people we're trying to help.

Ann Yeah. I don't know if you know about the major conventions that come up for the ACB and also the National Federation of the Blind. They're in July. We've already gone past our programming stages for them, but for next year, that's a place you probably want to be. You probably want to be, see if you could be a vendor in the exhibit hall. They can do, God times, they do an in-person one and then they do a virtual recording, like a short piece as well. But that's something that you should look into. and then there's also the American Foundation of the Blind, they have a convention and a conference. So there's all kinds of resources there for you to prep for the conference season. That might be a good idea for you to get the word out for your marketing and stuff.

Renee That would be wonderful. We are set up and ready to do any of that, and we would love to be involved in it.

Ann

• Cool, okay, yeah, I mean, I know as, I'm a writer and sometimes the marketing is the hardest part of all of this and it's a full-time job in itself, so I hear you. - Yeah. - Sometimes you wanna say, "I want somebody else to do this."

Tristan

• That's why I'm glad there's two of us.

Ann

• Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you guys share the stress, right? And share the load and share the successes and yeah, wonderful stuff. I wanted to ask you if you, could you tell us your website and your other social media stuff for people who are listening and wanna look you up?

Tristan

• Definitely, yeah. So for our social medias, for our Facebook, it's just capital N, capital V for InVision Guitars, LLC. as far as our Instagram, it's all lowercase, Envision_Guitars. And then we are still working on getting our square website up and going. We've done some tinkering around with it, but we should be publishing it here soon. And then we also have our YouTube, which is EnvisionGuitars LLC, in which we just kind of post the different build processes. And it's a, yep, just @envisionguitars.

Ann

• Okay, cool.

Meghan All right, Megan, you have any other questions? No, I mean, I think a lot of the questions that I asked, we kind of both thought about them, which is awesome. No further questions on my end. I just am so impressed by you guys. I found, I just found your Instagram gave you. Oh, yay. Yeah.

Renee That's awesome. Well, thank you guys for having us on and we really appreciate it. And if, you know, if anything comes up, we would love to be a part of anything that, you know relates to this and and we appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah.

Ann Thank you all for coming and good luck to you all. Thank you.

Renee Wonderful stuff. Best of luck. All right. So much Megan. Take care guys. All right. Thank you.

Jason Art Parlor is brought to you by Friends in Art and ACB Media. It airs several times a week on ACB Media One. To listen and for a full schedule, go to acbmedia.org/one. Art Parlor is also available as a podcast. Just search for Art Parlor in your favorite podcast app. We'd love to hear from you. You can email us at artparlor@friendsinart.org and please feel free to check out our website www.friendsinart.org. Thank you so much for listening and for your support. We'll be back next month.

Poetry is meant to be read aloud. In this session, poems written by Langston Hughes, Mya Angelou, Denise Levertov, Alan Ginsberg, and other powerful talents were performed and discussed.

Facilitated by: Annie Chiappetta.

We thank you for your support and hope you enjoy the show!

Welcome to the September edition of The Art Parlor, brought to you by Friends in Art! In this episode, we speak with author and entertainer, Abbie Taylor. Join us as we explore her journey starting as a music therapist, with music entertainment and writing following in step. We also learn about her newly-published book, Living Vicariously in Wyoming: Stories.

It was a pleasure having Abbie with us on the Art Parlor and we hope you enjoy the show! To learn more about her and stay up to date, visit her website at www.abbiejohnsontaylor.com.

AI-Generated Transcript

Opinions expressed on ACB Media are those of the respective program contributors and cannot be assumed to serve as endorsements of products or views by Friends in Art, the American Council of the Blind, their elected officials or staff.

Friends in Art welcomes you to the Art Parlor, where visually impaired artists of all types will discuss their work.

Pull up a chair, bring along your beverage of choice, and listen to thoughtful, stimulating conversations with visually impaired artists in all media and from all parts of the world.

And now, here's your host, Ann Chiappetta.

Good evening everyone, welcome to the Friends in Art Art Parlor, where artists and audiences thrive.

You can find us on www.friendsinart.org.

Tonight we are talking to Abbie Johnson-Taylor, and Abbie is a singer, a musician, a poet, and an author.

Did I miss anything, Abbie?

I don't think so, I think you covered it all.

All right, and we're going to talk a little bit about your newest book, Living Vicariously in Wyoming, which is a great title, by the way, and all the other creative things you do in your life.

Hopefully we can get it all in in the time that we're going to be talking to you.

So, Abbie, first maybe you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you live, what you do, and then we'll go from there.

Okay, well I'm in Sheridan, Wyoming, and I am, as you said, a writer, and I'm also a singer.

I've published seven books, and there's two novels, two poetry collections, and a memoir, and then this new short story collection that just came out back in March.

And when I'm not writing, I entertain monthly at two or three senior facilities in the community, plus at our local senior center, and then I also do the music for a local church the second Sunday of the month.

And then in the fall, winter, and spring months, I sing with a group called the Hubcaps, which meets at the senior center and does most of our performances there.

My goodness, you need a personal assistant to like help you out.

Right, well, that's what I have my AMAZON ECHO devices for, and my iPhone.

So, yeah, yeah, definitely.

So, how long has it been for you, like, when did you get the bug, like this, you know, I know that, at least I think I remember you saying you came from a musical family, and can you talk a little bit about that?

Well, my grandfather played the saxophone in a band, and so I think I must have inherited his musical genes.

And then my younger brother did play drums for a while, and I think he still does, but I don't know that he does it on a regular basis as much as I do play the piano and guitar and sing.

But yeah, I have, and when I went, my mother loved to tell this story about how I started playing music.

They had purchased a used piano, upright piano, and they thought it would just be a toy.

And I was about five years old, and I was digging around one day, and I don't really remember this, but my mother said she heard me playing "da-da-da-da," and so she immediately went to call a piano teacher.

Oh, and so where did you go from there?

Well, I took lessons, you know, off and on.

At that time, we were living in Tucson, Arizona, and I, you know, took lessons from several teachers, and then we moved here to Wyoming, and I took lessons for another year or so, and then I finally gave up, and I then got interested in playing popular songs and then singing and using the piano to accompany myself.

And I pretty much did that, you know, through my teen years.

And then in college, when I decided to study music therapy, I had to get a guitar, because, you know, if you're working, like, in nursing homes, and of course the residence rooms don't have pianos, and so you need something portable that you can take, you know, and play when you're in those situations.

So, and that's basically how my music career got off the ground.

How long did it take for you to really learn the guitar and feel confident with the guitar?

Well, I actually, I'm guessing maybe like one semester, because I just took a beginning guitar class, and that was really all I needed for what I was going to do.

Just, you know, learn some basic stuff, you know, just to play, you know, a few chords here and there, nothing, nothing really fancy.

So, yeah, about a semester.

And then, you know, the piano kind of, I really don't remember how long it took to learn the piano.

I was pretty small when I started, but, you know, I took lessons for years.

But I only took, you know, guitar maybe for half, for a semester in college, and that was it.

So, which do you prefer to play, or which do you play more often?

I prefer to play the piano, but since, you know, the facilities where I go don't have a piano that's either, you know, available in the same room where I am, or it's out of tune, or whatever.

I use the guitar, but I actually prefer the piano, because I can do more with it than I can with the guitar.

Yeah, yeah.

And do you read Braille music?

No, I play, I do all my playing by ear, and nowadays it's easy when I learn, want to learn something new, I just have my A lady play it, and then I go find the words online, and, you know, I may have to hear it several times, and, you know, and, you know, go through it with the, with the lyrics, but it's really not that hard to do.

That's amazing.

Do you have perfect pitch?

Yes, I do.

Yeah, well, that makes it easier, doesn't it?

It does make it easier, but it makes it annoying at parties, because when people hear you have perfect pitch, they say, "What's this note?

What's that note?"

And it can get annoying, to say the least.

But otherwise, it works hands-in-handy.

That's like, my kids, I would, I would tell them to drop a coin, and I would say I know what coin it was, and so that turned into a parlor trick with their friends, and at some point, I was like, "No, I don't want to tell you what coin that dropped on the floor."

Oh, I know.

Like, I'm sorry.

You're not the only, you're not the only totally blind person I know that does it.

I had a friend who was totally blind when I was in college, and whenever I dropped a coin, she would say, "Oh, you dropped a quarter."

Well, that's really helpful, but can you tell me where it landed?

No.

Well, I could kind of tell you, maybe, like, maybe it's over there by your left foot, but I don't know how far it is.

Right.

Oh my goodness.

All right.

You were originally from Tucson, Arizona.

Did you move to Wyoming?

Well, I was actually born in New York City.

Were you really?

Yeah, yeah, and, but we were only there for about a year, and then my parents, we moved to Boulder, Colorado, and we stayed there for a few years, and then moved to Tucson, Arizona, where we lived for about eight years before deciding to move up here, and we moved up here because my grandfather had just passed away, and grandma needed someone to run the family's coin operating machine business, and so my dad felt obligated to do that because none of his other siblings were interested.

So, we came up here, and I've been here ever since.

I did go away to school in the 1980s, but then I came back, and I've been here ever since.

Oh, I didn't know you were born in New York City.

My goodness.

Yeah, yeah, and unfortunately, I don't remember anything about living there.

We were only there for about a year, I think.

So, well, you know what?

That's great that you didn't remember the bad things or the good things.

Right, exactly.

Life's late, right?

Yes, yes.

Abbie, you and I have known each other for how long now?

A long time.

I can't count that high.

Ten years, I think, and we originally met through behind our eyes.

Yes.

Right?

Yeah.

So, I knew you first and foremost as a writer, and then as a musician.

It's just interesting, you know, who knew you first as a musician, and who knew you first as a writer?

I'm just telling you, I knew you first as a writer.

And then, you know, when I really listened to your work, you know, as a vocalist and everything, you give a beautiful voice, and you have a gift.

I just wanted to say that.

Yeah.

So, let's talk about your book, Living Vicariously in Wyoming.

I already told you I loved the title, and I didn't really, kind of, you know, when I first heard the title, I was like, "Oh, this should be interesting."

Then after I read the book, I was like, "Oh, it makes total sense now!"

So, I was like, "Yeah, it's the perfect title!"

And I like that in books.

A little bit of intriguing, like, question.

It makes you open the book and read it, to find out why you chose that title.

So, I really liked it.

I guess my first question would be, like, where did these stories originate?

Were they prompts?

Were they things that you sent off to other publishers?

Were any of them just, you wake up in the middle of the night, and you had to write that down?

>> Well, these stories had, you know, a variety of different inspirations.

I know that the last one in the book, Welcome to Wyoming, it was actually a dream I had that I was the one who was trying, getting back and ended up in the situation that she is in, in the story.

And other stories were just inspired by some by real-life events.

There's one where a college student identifies with a character in a play, and my parents, were into community theater.

And I did have some acting experience in high school and college, and I was on the speech team.

And so, in that kind of inspired that story.

And, you know, just different, different things inspired different stories.

>> Yeah.

Did you have any stories in the collection that you felt were really important to put in the collection?

>> Well, I thought they were all important.

It was just figuring out where to put what story.

And I certainly hope that I kind of created a balance.

I didn't want, because I knew there were a couple, two or three stories that had the similar theme.

I didn't want to have them too close together.

And, you know, so I'm hoping, you know, I tried to create a balance so that each story was going to be, you know, different from the last.

But then there might be a few that might be similar, but they wouldn't be together.

>> Right.

Yeah, the balance.

How to put the order of things.

I know from doing that myself.

>> Right.

>> It's, you know, you've got to get it right.

And, you know, you don't know what, you know what's not working.

You know, but once you get it right, you hit the sweet spot, you know.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

I want to know which story was the story that was like the throwout story.

Like if it doesn't fit, I'll get rid of it.

>> You know, I don't think any of them were.

I wanted to make them all fit.

I don't like to just throw anything out.

The only stories that would not have fit it, because I wrote, I've written other stories that aren't set in Wyoming.

These are all set mostly in Wyoming.

And so anything that really didn't have anything to do with Wyoming was definitely would not be included in this particular collection.

But of course, I might put together another collection sometime that would have other stories that don't take place in Wyoming because I've written several of those.

>> Oh, excellent.

So yeah, follow up book for sure.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> What was the most satisfying about getting this book together personally?

>> Well, when I finally read through the collection for the last time before I sent it to Leonore at DLD Books for her to edit, you know, just reading that through and thinking, oh, yeah, this works, this story here and that story there, you know, it all just seemed to come together for me.

And that was the most satisfying, I think.

>> Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I can understand that.

>> So performing and writing, okay, they're both creative, right?

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

So what's the difference then?

Like, do you use the same skills?

Why or why not?

Do you use different skills?

Do you find that, you know, you draw from one place within you versus another place when you're performing or when you're writing?

Could you, like, talk about that?

>> Well, when I'm performing, it's usually, especially when I'm singing.

Now, I do perform my own poetry once in a while during readings, but when I'm performing music, it's usually somebody else's songs.

And so then I'm, I am, you know, figuring out, you know, how to interpret the song.

Sometimes I interpret it in the way they sang it.

Sometimes I have a whole different interpretation.

But when I'm writing, I'm creating my own work as opposed to delivering somebody else's.

>> Hmm.

And what's that like?

>> Well, it's, it's, it's a lot of work, you know, creating my own work.

It uses a lot more, I think, a lot more brain cells, perhaps, because you need to, you know, create, put the work together.

Whereas when you're singing something, another song, you just, you only have to do is memorize the words and figure out the interpretation.

When you're writing something, whether it be a story or a poem or an essay, you're actually doing it from scratch.

I think it's maybe like kind of baking a cake from scratch.

You start, you know, you don't, you know, nothing is pre-made.

You just, you know, put it all together and mix it together and put it in the oven.

And, you know, that, that's what writing is like for me.

>> Interesting stuff, like baking a cake?

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Hmm.

A cake from scratch, not one from out of the box, right?

That's the difference.

>> Right, yeah.

No, I'm talking about, you know, from scratch.

And the good news is I don't bake.

I just write.

I mean, I kind of, I prefer to write than bake, because if you make a mistake when writing, it's easy to go back and fix.

But when you're baking, you add too much of this.

I mean, it's harder, it's going to be harder to, to fix that, you know.

>> That's for sure.

You leave it in the oven too long.

>> Right, exactly.

There's nothing you can do about it.

But when you're writing, you make a mistake, you want to make a change to something, especially nowadays with the computers, it's much easier.

I often wonder how writers like Ernest Hemingway and John Steinbeck and Mark Twain did it, because, you know, I understand Mark Twain was the first one to use a typewriter.

And of course, those typewriters back in the, they didn't even, there was no way, they didn't even have auto-correct, let alone, you know, going back and changing things like you can on a computer.

So.

>> Yeah, they did the old-fashioned strike through or skip a line.

And can you imagine what their manuscripts look like?

Oh, my goodness.

>> And they probably would have to just rewrite things, you know, if they, you know.

>> They pencil out stuff, you know.

>> They acted more than one draft, yeah, exactly.

>> Yeah, yeah, wow.

I know, I can't imagine that.

So I started out an old Smith Corona with a little tiny screen.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And of course, you couldn't see it, and you didn't know when you made a mistake.

You didn't have a screen reader, so you had to, you know, figure out another way of correcting those mistakes.

And I'm sure that was tricky.

>> Yeah, I actually, so my first one was like that.

Then I graduated to the one with the little floppy disk, and it had a little screen, a separate monitor, and I had a special setup.

>> Oh.

>> And that worked for a while until my vision got really bad.

>> Oh, right.

>> But then, you know, technology got better, and my life improved, so.

But yeah, electric typewriters, those are the things that we learned on.

>> Right, right.

>> You know, we mastered.

So do you, so I know you went, did you spend some time at a school for the blind?

>> Yes, in Arizona, I spent five and a half years of my elementary school education at the Arizona State School for the Blind.

And I was a day student, because it was right there in Tucson, so I was able to commute.

I didn't have to live in the dorm or anything.

>> Right.

And that's where you learned all your blindness skills?

>> Yeah, that's where I learned to read Braille.

And, you know, that was basically the only blindness skill per se I learned.

It wasn't until I was in college, and I went to a college prep program at a rehab facility in Topeka where I learned cane travel and, you know, some, you know, other communication skills and stuff, and some daily living.

Although my mother taught me a lot of the daily living stuff that I learned, so.

>> How did, so what did your mom teach you?

Like, what are some of the takeaways from that?

>> Well, you know, she taught, you know, how to make a bed, how to, you know, make a sandwich, you know, how to cook things, how to use the microwave, you know, how to cook things on the stove, how to do laundry, you know, a lot of that stuff I learned from her.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Especially after we moved to Wyoming, because there really wasn't much in the way of programs where blind people could learn those skills.

There is, was a summer camp for the blind, but it was only like for a week or two, a week if you were a kid and two weeks if you were an adult.

You know, you can't learn much in one or two weeks.

So, you know, yeah.

>> Right.

>> So, you know, it was mostly just education.

We didn't learn, at least in elementary school.

Now, I think in seventh and eighth grade, they had home ec, but by that time we'd moved here, so.

>> Okay.

Do you read braille music?

>> No, I don't.

I never learned to read braille music.

I just play all my playing by ear.

>> Have you ever tried?

Like, like -- >> I did try.

I, you know, I tried a few times.

I just couldn't get into it.

And I just, you know, and now if I were playing classical music, you know, or, you know, or singing opera, then I think braille music would be, would be easier for me to, you know, to learn.

>> Right.

>> But if I'm just doing popular stuff, it's just easier, you know, to hear the song and just learn it by ear and then develop my own accompaniment, maybe my own style, maybe do it the way the other person sings it or do it my way, you know, just, you know, whatever.

Just kind of go with the flow.

>> Yeah.

I've heard you on karaoke night -- >> Oh, yeah, yes. >> -- on ACB, and yeah, and everybody loves you there.

>> And that's, yes.

Yes.

And that's another thing I do.

I do that, I usually do that once a week.

And of course, so I'm so, of course, I'm always doing new songs, you know, working on that and getting those records.

So that's another thing that takes up, you know, a lot of my time as well as the other stuff that I'm doing.

But it's fun.

I enjoy it.

>> Wow.

>> Because, I mean, I don't know, when we were kids, I think we all aspired to be rock stars at some point in our lives.

>> Right.

Right, right.

>> Air guitar and air drums.

>> Right.

And then we were all told, oh, you should find something more lucrative.

And so that's what I ended up doing.

And maybe it's better that way, because I don't know.

I don't know if I want -- I've read memoirs by Olivia Newton-John and other artists, and I'm not sure now, in my old age, that I would want that life.

So -- >> It's a tough business.

>> It is a tough business, yes.

>> It is a tough business.

I mean, I think of people like Cher.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Did you read her first memoir?

Her first part?

>> No, I didn't.

>> Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, she narrates it herself.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Yeah.

And she's working on the second one, the second half.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, I should go find that.

>> I digress.

>> I loved Cher.

I should go find that.

>> Yeah.

She's somebody who is the penultimate child of the music business.

I mean, she literally grew up in the business.

>> Oh, my gosh.

>> And she talks about a lot of stuff.

>> Wow.

Wow.

>> Yeah, yeah.

Really interesting.

So let's go back to the writing.

We're going to pivot a little.

So when I was reading your stuff, I noticed you had some recurring characters.

You had Al, Ruth, and Michelle.

>> Yes.

>> And they had a couple of stories.

>> Three stories to me.

>> Yeah.

And I want to know, would you ever consider developing them as a novella or a novel?

Because their histories are so interesting to me.

They have so much under there.

I'm like, oh, it would make a great story.

>> Yeah.

Well, you know, possibly.

I'm just not sure, though, where I would go after the third story.

Because Al kind of gets himself into these situations and how he gets out.

I'd have to think of more situations that he could get in and out of.

So, yeah, maybe it's possible.

If I could figure out where to go with it, I might do that at some point.

>> Yeah, they were very compelling to me.

They spoke to me quite a bit.

And I just thought they were great.

They were great characters.

>> Yeah, yeah.

And they work as standalone as well as together.

I kind of worked them so that if somebody, you know, didn't read one, like the second one, without reading the first one, they still kind of get an idea.

So, but then they could be read all together.

All three of them together.

But I didn't put them all together in the book.

I thought it would be better to kind of space them out.

>> Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

I like the way that happened.

The inspiration I got for this whole collection was reading a book by Anne Beattie, B-E-A-T-T-I-E, called "The State We're In."

And her stories are set mostly in Maine.

And she has two stories about the same characters.

And she had one at the beginning of the book and one at the end of the book.

So I thought, well, I'll space mine out because maybe that might be more effective that way.

>> Oh, it definitely was.

Any other challenges about any of the stories or, you know, anything related to -- >> Well, there were a few stories that I didn't know quite how to end.

And the one about the class reunion, I sent to a behind-our-eyes critique group, and somebody gave me a really good idea for an ending.

And so that's, you know, the ending I ended up using.

And "Welcome to Wyoming" I wrote years ago.

That's the last one.

And I struggled with umpteen million different endings until I finally just decided just to go back to the original ending.

Because the original ending is -- the people in critique groups are saying, "It doesn't work.

It doesn't work.

It doesn't work."

Well, you know, does it really have to work?

It can be, you know, it can be kind of -- it doesn't always have to be realistic.

So that's why I kind of left the ending the way it went back to the original ending for that.

>> Yeah.

It's funny you mentioned endings.

That's something that I struggle with a lot in my short stories and my flash fiction.

And, you know, no matter which ending I choose, there is someone that, you know, inevitably says, "That didn't work for me."

>> Right, right.

>> Or, "It didn't wrap things up.

It didn't end on a happy note.

It didn't end on a tragic note."

[Laughter] >> Or, "What happened to the cat?"

I mean, like, things like that.

And it's just very interesting to me how the feedback, you know, formulates your success in your stories.

Could you talk a little bit about that?

Like, how critique groups and feedback, you know, has helped you or maybe not helped you or maybe, you know, made you scratch your head?

I think that's, you know, that's something that about the writing life specifically that, you know, we don't often talk about.

Like, you know, how we struggle with picking this word or that word or this person's name doesn't fit with that person's name.

Can you recall any of those things in any of those stories?

>> Yeah.

And like I said, it was more sometimes critique groups could be frustrating because they would say, "It doesn't work."

And then, "Okay, well, what would you suggest?"

And some people would suggest things I think, "Oh, my God.

I've had it just so outraged.

I could never do that.

That's not something I would do."

And it's just like, you know, I -- so I just finally, you know, I've decided I take what I get in a critique group with a grain of salt.

And if it works, it works.

If it doesn't, it doesn't.

But at least, you know, I'm getting some feedback whether it's helpful or not.

>> Have you ever changed anything major dramatically and then going, "Oh, yeah."

Like, "All right."

>> Yeah, I have done that.

And I've changed it and sometimes it works.

And then I change it and I think, "Oh, no.

I don't like it.

I'm going to go back to the original."

>> Talk about a little bit how you manage your computer and your file system, that kind of thing.

I know this inevitably comes up whenever we talk about writing, like how you manage your Microsoft folders or, you know, whatever.

Do you have a system that you'd like to share?

>> Yes, I do.

I -- yes, I do have a system.

I have all my poems are in one folder.

My fiction is in one folder.

My nonfiction is in another folder.

And then any -- when I submit something, I move it to a different folder.

And sometimes if it's like a magazine that I regularly submit to, like Magazine Ladders, I have that in a separate folder in that submission folder.

And so that -- when I decide I'm going to put a piece in that particular publication, I'll move it to that -- save it to that -- no, I won't move it.

I'll save it to that folder, you know, and, you know, then it's just easier than when I find out about what's been accepted and then I go back and look, "Okay, well, that wasn't accepted.

So that was rejected."

And then I can make a note of it.

And I have a Word document that I keep track of where I keep track of all my submissions, what's been submitted, whether it was rejected or accepted or what.

And so that's how I keep track of everything.

Do you include dates and things like that?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And my submission records, I do.

I do.

Yes, on that document.

Yeah, I include dates when it was submitted and dates it was accepted and, you know, if it's going to be published, what edition, and/or if it was rejected, I'll put that down.

That way I know when I look at it again, to send it somewhere else, I'll know it's, you know, it's available or not available.

Yeah, that's cool.

I do something similar for sure.

Now, what about like your Works in Progress?

I mean, I have a folder that says Works in Progress, and then I have subfolders based off that, like, you know, genres and things like that.

I don't have separate folders for Works in Progress.

It all goes into poetry, fiction, or nonfiction.

And then when I'm looking for something to submit, I can go through and I can look at it and say, well, it needs work.

I do have time.

No, I don't have time.

Let's find something else.

That's basically how I do it.

Yeah, I do something similar to that.

I do work with Excel more, I think.

I'm kind of getting used to doing that more.

I don't know.

It works.

For your submission reference?

Yeah.

Oh, you know, I've tried.

I need to figure that out.

That's one thing I need to figure out how to do is use Excel because it might be more efficient.

The Word document works pretty well.

But yeah, because I can keep, you know, information about each piece in a separate paragraph, and then I can search for it and find stuff that way.

But I'm thinking the Excel spreadsheet might be more efficient.

One of these days I'll figure that out.

It does take time to set all that stuff up.

Right, yeah.

Especially when you have, how many poems do you think you have, Abbie?

Oh, my gosh.

Like I said earlier, I can't count that high.

No, I've got quite a few poems, quite a few stories, quite a few nonfiction works.

And some are on the computer, and then I have some that I put on a thumb drive, an SD card.

Because when I go to my monthly poetry group or any kind of workshop, I take my Braille display with a thumb drive or SD card, and I save stuff to that.

And so, you know, I've got all kinds, works everywhere.

What type of Braille display do you use?

I use a Brilliant BI20, a 20-cell display.

And I also use it with my computer as well as a display because I find when editing, Braille is more efficient than just using speech.

When I was editing the ACB of New York newsletter, I would have a Braille proofreader.

Oh!

Yeah, and she would always catch my double periods.

Oh, yeah.

Or my double spaces.

Right.

It was great.

Yeah, in fact, the people in my small critique group with BOE, I'm sure they're frustrated with me because I read, I go through everything, their stuff in Braille, and I, because some of them, you know, can't tell if they have made a mistake.

And so, they appreciate me telling them, but I'm sure it's frustrating.

Oh, why didn't I catch that?

So, yeah.

Yeah, I know, you've got to be pretty good at editing in Word with JAWS and stuff to catch every little thing.

But of course, there is stuff that I miss as well.

I'm not perfect.

I miss stuff too.

You know, it happens to, even sighted writers, it happens to.

Yes.

You know, we're going to miss stuff.

Yeah, and I think that's something that we need to say more often to people more blind or low vision that are writers, you know, in work, is that everybody makes mistakes.

You look at something too long, you're going to miss something.

Absolutely.

It's always best to have a third eye on things.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah, whenever you can.

So, does anybody else have questions for Abbie?

I know you guys have been silent.

This is Peter, and I was curious about, you've written, I know, books of poetry and you've read novels.

What, I don't think you've ever published a collection of short stories before.

No, I haven't.

What inspired you to now do short stories and how are they different from writing a novel or a poem or how do you sort of distinguish the various styles?

Yeah, I was inspired to put this collection together, like I said, after reading Anne Beattie's The State We're In.

I thought it might be neat because, and you know, Wyoming is really no different from any other state.

But, you know, people in Wyoming have life just like they do in any other state, but, you know, I just, it's kind of neat to have stories set in a locale.

And, of course, short stories, unlike a novel, where you can kind of, you can put more, add more to a novel and kind of go into depth, short stories, you have to kind of, they need to be paced, have a faster pace.

Or otherwise, you know, they get too long.

Whereas novels, you can kind of go on and on and, you know, but not with short stories.

So that's really how they're different.

Yeah, so I was just going to ask you to talk more about sort of the short story genre, as it were.

Talk more about how you think differently when you're writing a short story than a novel.

Yes, they're shorter, obviously, that's why they're short stories.

But how do you determine, for example, if a block of text is a short story or might be a part of a novel or how do you sort of determine that?

Well, that's difficult.

And I've actually had a couple of my short stories did start out as novels.

But then I realized I just didn't have enough material for a novel.

So that's why I made them into a short story.

It depends on the subject matter and the plot and how far you want to go with the plot.

That is what determines whether something will be a short story or a novel.

And then I actually wrote a short story back in the earlier part of the century that actually morphed into my first novel, We Shall Overcome.

It was originally a short story, but then I thought, oh, I could add more to that.

Maybe I could write sequel.

No, I'll just write a novel.

And so that's how basically how We Shall Overcome was born.

Is that how The Red Dress was born?

Actually, no, that was actually a novel, but that one was inspired by a memoir story.

I was taking a memoir writing class at the time, and we were prompted to write about an article of clothing.

And one lady in the group wrote about this red blouse she had that her mother made for her.

And she went to college and her sorority sister bullied her into giving her that red blouse.

And the relationship between her and her mother was never the same after that.

And so I got one of those what if moments I get when writing fiction.

What if it was a red dress?

She wore the red dress to her prom.

She danced with the boy she thought she loved.

And then she discovered him in the act with her best friend in the backseat of his car.

And then she takes the dress to college at her mother's urging in case she needs it for some formal event there.

And her roommate bullies her into giving up the dress.

And that's how The Red Dress kind of got started.

Mm hmm.

Wow.

All that from a writing group?

Yes.

Yeah, it's amazing what inspiration you can get in a writing group.

Yeah, for sure.

Nell, you had a question.

Yes.

I was wondering when you put your collection together, because I have trouble with, I guess, putting things in order.

When you put your collection together, how did you decide the order in which your stories would fully be?

I know that you were talking earlier about how some of them, Annie had asked you about a few of them that were kind of interconnected or had the same characters.

But other than that, did you have a routine or or even, I guess, like a hack that you used to help you decide where you were going to put your short stories?

Well, first of all, I wanted to put stories that were told because, you know, some of my stories are in third person point of view and some of my stories are in first person.

So I tried to separate so that I wouldn't have two stories told in first person.

Well, that didn't always turn out.

There are some instances where I have maybe two or three stories set in first person together, two or three stories set in third person together.

But then I also, you know, by by the themes, I didn't also want to I didn't want to have two stories with the same theme put together.

And so that's that's it.

I was telling Annie earlier.

That's why I spaced out the Al Johnson stories, because that would be better to have them, you know, one kind of close to the beginning, one kind of in the middle, and kind of one kind of closer to the end and just space them out.

And it's not an easy thing to do putting together a collection, figuring out what story is going to go where.

But it actually it actually didn't turn out too badly once I did get it all put together.

No, it didn't.

I found that it flowed pretty well.

And, you know, I you know, if I if I stopped listening, you know, at the end of one story, you know, and I do something and then I went back and listen, I didn't feel like I missed anything from one to the other.

So, yeah, that kind of thing.

It was for that reason.

About reading short story.

Yeah.

You don't have time to read for a long period of time.

You know, you can feel satisfied usually.

Now, some of my stories endings kind of leave you up in the air.

But in most cases, you know, you finish a story.

You don't have time to go to the next one right away.

You feel like you're not left hanging in the air most of the time.

Yes, that's true.

I mean, and that's that's a really that's, you know, to land a story in a place where most people are going to feel satisfied is is a big ask.

Yes, he is.

Who right?

Like, yeah, because there's a lot of second guessing and always this right.

And, you know, and all of that.

But when you write, people tell you, oh, I love that.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

That was the right place.

Before we get to you talking about, you know, where to find all your books and all that stuff.

I'd like you to talk a little bit about your poetry and where it fits in with your your musical career and your writing career and how you balance that.

OK, I have two collections of poetry out.

The first one is that was published in 2011 was How to Build a Better Mousetrap, Recollections and Reflections of a Family Caregiver.

Now, that is a full length collection divided into four parts.

The first part is was inspired by my caregiving experiences.

My late husband, Bill, suffered two paralyzing strokes after we were married.

And so I took care of him at home during most of our married life.

And a lot of the poems in that book, in that first part, were based on that.

And then I've got a section of poems that I've called Recollections that are based on inspired by childhood memories.

And then there's a section called Reflections, which is basically reflections on different topics.

And then the last part of that book is on aging.

And those are poems.

There's only like six poems in that collection, and they are inspired by my experiences as a registered music therapist in a nursing home before I started writing.

And so a lot of the poems, you know, were inspired by my life.

And then my second collection, Bat's Life, is just kind of it's a chapbook, actually.

And it's just kind of poems that were inspired by different events in my life.

There was a couple, one or two, that inspired by stuff that happened in the news and just just different things.

Hmm.

What kind of poetry do you like to write?

Do you like nature poetry?

Do you like people focused poetry?

Do you like poetry that nostalgia?

I prefer to write poetry that is straightforward because I write the type of poetry I want to read.

So I want to I want to write poetry that is easy to understand, that doesn't leave you a shake in your head like, hmm.

You know, I want I want to be fun.

Well, not, of course, if there is on serious subject, it's not fun.

But I want to be easy to read and understand and identify with is basically the type of poems I like to write and read.

Yeah.

Do you have any favorites?

In favor of my poems or somebody else's poetry?

Well, do you have any favorites?

Other poets, other writers, other musicians?

Billy Collins, Ted Koozer and Marge Piercy are my favorite poets.

And they have actually Billy Collins and Ted Koozer have and oh, no, I'm sorry, but Marge Piercy and Billy Collins have inspired some of my poems.

And then Marge Piercy wrote a memoir called Sweeping with Cats, which inspired my memoir, My Ideal Partner, because what she did with her memoir is the same thing I did with mine in that she put a poem at the end of each chapter in her memoir.

And so I read that and I thought, oh, I'm going to do that with mine.

And it kind of it makes it makes the chapter I try to relate the poem to what I talk about in the chapter and it makes it more effective, I think.

Well, it gives another level of appreciation and yes to what you're writing.

You know, it opens up a whole different level of perspective in your writing.

I think that's if you can do that, I think that's great.

I think that's why a lot of people open up with quotes and things like that in their chapters.

That's why I did it.

Right.

Because I gave a little bit of a clue as to what's going to happen.

A little bit of insight, a little bit of depth.

And it helps the reader.

I think it helps the reader appreciate what you're writing.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey, Abbie, can you talk you talk about your beginnings as a musician, how you practice the piano and all that stuff.

I haven't talked about your beginnings as a writer.

How did that start?

How did you start?

Oh, beginning as a writer.

OK.

Yeah.

Well, as I said, I was working as a registered music therapist in a nursing home and I got the writing bug.

Oh, probably about in the late 1990s, I was spending a couple of weeks each summer at a camp for the blind on Casper Mountain.

And they had a creative writing class, which I thought I'd take just for fun.

And that's kind of where I got bitten by the bug, you might say, because I was writing for a stacked band.

That was before I had a computer.

And so I was doing everything in Braille.

Then eventually I got the computer and then I was able to use that.

And that's kind of basically how I got started.

And in 2000, I had my first story published in a local college's literary journal.

And and then I and then one of my poems won a contest in a local writing group was having and I was invited to join the group.

And that's kind of basically how it took off.

But at the time I was working sometimes 40 hour weeks.

And it was hard finding time to write.

And so when I met and married my late husband, Bill, he persuaded me to quit the day job and write full time.

And that's what I did.

And I haven't looked back.

And how was that?

And you're working 40 hours a week and all of a sudden you're not working at all and you're writing every day.

How is that?

How did you make that adjustment?

You know, it was wonderful because Bill, before he had his strokes that is and he was able to do things independently.

He was an excellent cook.

And so I didn't have to worry about.

And he also did housework.

I let him do everything.

And I wrote.

And then, of course, I would help with the dishes after a meal.

But, you know, other than that, he took care of everything.

Of course, we did have a cleaning lady.

But, you know, it was great.

It was liberating.

You know, I didn't have to worry about, you know, what am I going to do this?

How am I going to find time to do this, that?

I did it.

Of course, after we got married, he decided to buy me a Windows computer because I had been using a Mac.

And, of course, back then the speech was kind of antiquated and so on and so forth.

And so he was using a Mac and so he or a Windows machine.

So he got me my first Windows computer.

So then first thing I do before I could write anything was, you know, learn how to use the Windows machine and then transfer everything over.

But once I got going, I mean, it was just liberating.

And then Bill had his first stroke.

And nine months later, I brought him home and then I was taking care of him.

And so then it was back to, OK, I've got to do this and this and this for him.

When am I going to have time to do this and this and this for myself?

But I managed to publish two books while I was caring for him.

So, you know, one way or another, I got it done.

You sure did.

Yeah, you sure did.

I just can't imagine, you know, my from my experience when I was sort of forced to sit down and write stuff.

And I really is the way I viewed it was being forced to write stuff that, you know, you, you found that whole leaving work and and having that space liberating.

Right.

I find that so interesting because that's not the way I experienced it at all.

And that's why I no longer write in part.

But I just find that really, really interesting.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, it is too bad that you're no longer writing.

I hope you can someday be inspired to get back into it again.

Oh, I do creative stuff.

It's just not in the field of writing.

Oh, OK.

Well, you know, as long as it's, you know, making you happy and and feel fulfilled, you know, because it is what I'm doing now.

I'm not I do entertain at nursing homes and stuff.

I'm not a practicing music therapist anymore.

But what I'm doing right now is fulfilling and rewarding for me.

And so, you know, that's that's that's that's the important thing.

Yeah.

Yes.

To find what's rewarding and what what fills your your time with experiences and and and feeling useful.

I know that when I left my full time job, took me a little while to figure that stuff out.

Right.

I felt like I was kind of floating around in a little bit of a bubble.

Right.

But then I got my feet back on the ground and I didn't look back.

So and it was liberating, Abbie.

You're right.

It is.

And it was just it felt so freeing.

I could take my thoughts and my creativity wherever I wanted.

And yeah, that's kind of like what I wanted to do all my life.

So, you know, it just took a long time to get there.

Yes.

Yes, it does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But really good stuff.

So, Abbie, tell us where we can find your books.

OK.

And any other type of social media kind of stuff.

Yes.

The easiest way I think would be to go to my website, which is www.abbiejohnsontaylor.com.

And there are pages for all my books where you'll find information about the books.

You'll find some reviews, interviews, and then you'll find ordering links from the various resources.

Can people contact you from your website?

Yes.

There's a contact form there where people can reach me.

So, yes, absolutely.

And finally, can you let the people who are listening, you know, what would be your advice to someone who's just starting out as a writer?

What would you, what advice would you give them?

Well, I have several bits of advice.

Read, read, read, read.

Not just books in the genre you want to write, but read books on the craft of writing.

Also, if you can, read the Writer Magazine, Writers Digest.

They have all kinds of helpful articles and markets and other resources.

And also find a group in your area or online that can help with critiquing, or you can share your work and network with other writers.

You know, join writers organizations.

Just, you know, get out there and meet other writers.

And those are my two pieces of advice.

I think those are great pieces of advice, because those are the two primary ways that you can improve your craft and get out there and meet people.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

All righty.

Well, thank you, Abbie, so much for being here.

And good luck with all your writing endeavors and all of your singing and all of the things that you do.

You're a very creative person.

And thank you for being here.

Well, thank you, Annie, for having me.

It was my pleasure.

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Welcome to the May edition of The Art Parlor! This month, oru guest is Johnny Cassidy. He is a BBC journalist and a fellow for the Reuter’s Institute for the Study of Journalism. Johnny Cassidy has been a TV and radio producer at the BBC for more than 17 years. He has recently moved into a new role into digital news, working on longer-term projects, specifically on how to best reach opportunity and under-served audiences. He is a passionate advocate for diversity and inclusion and believes strongly in universal accessibility for everyone.

We are proud to now offer you a transcript of this episode and those in the future. Thank you and enjoy!

AI-generated Transcript

Opinions expressed on ACB Media are those of the respective program contributors and cannot be assumed to serve as endorsements of products or views by Friends in Art, the American Council of the Blind, their elected officials, or staff.

Friends in Art welcomes you to the Art Parlor, where visually impaired artists of all types will discuss their work.

Pull up a chair, bring along your beverage of choice, and listen to thoughtful, stimulating conversations with visually impaired artists in all media and from all parts of the world.

And now, here's your host, Ann Chiappetta.

Welcome to the Art Parlor.

I'm your president, Ann Chiappetta, and the Art Parlor is brought to you by Friends in Art, the place where blind and low vision artists and audiences thrive.

You can find us on www.friendsinart.org.

Today's guest is Johnny Cassidy.

He's a BBC journalist and a fellow for the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism.

Johnny Cassidy has been a TV and radio producer at the BBC for more than 17 years.

He's recently moved into a new role into digital news, working on longer-term projects, specifically focused on how best to reach opportunity and underserved audiences.

He is a passionate advocate for diversity and inclusion and believes strongly in universal accessibility for everyone.

Welcome Johnny.

Hello, Ann.

How are you doing?

Thank you so much for having me here.

Yeah, wonderful.

I'm glad you could make it and we managed to figure out the time change.

At last, eventually, yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So before we get started into my questions, I just want our listeners to know how we met and we met through the Descriptathon of all things.

And I just wanted to know what you thought of the overall experience for anyone that's listening that might be considering to do a Descriptathon.

Well, the first thing to say is, if you are considering to do it next year, go for it.

It was a fabulous, fantastic experience.

Not least because I got to meet you, Ann, and we're talking here today.

So if nothing else, that was a huge bonus.

But the Descriptathon, it was a really good experience.

It wasn't anything that I had experienced before.

I didn't know what to expect really from it.

So it was totally different.

I think, you know, trying to work like that in such a big, massive collaborative way with so many people, hats off and huge kudos to the whole team at Descriptathon who managed to corral and manage that big group of people.

And I think for so many people to show a passion and an interest in making images accessible to blind and low vision people, I think, you know, it's a it was just there's so many positives from it.

It was just really, really good.

So if anybody is considering it for next year, definitely go for it.

I thought it was fantastic.

Yeah, I totally agree.

That's why I keep coming back.

I think once you do it, you can't stop.

It's just it's such an affirming experience for everybody.

And you know, and it's not an easy thing either.

There's, you know, times where you're like, oh, boy, I got to keep going.

There's a lot of frenetic parts that just kind of come together.

You don't think it's going to come together.

And you say, oh, oh, wow.

You know, I don't know if we'll make it to the end.

But then you do.

It's like, I don't know how it happens, but it happens.

I think the management team must be doing so much really, as you say, frenetic stuff in the background, behind the scenes, under the waterline.

Because it does.

You know, I was exactly the same as you.

I was thinking this is chaotic.

And then it slowly but surely comes together and you find your feet.

You know what it is that you're doing before you know it.

Those three days are up and three big full days and they're open.

There's really good, solid product to show for it.

So yeah, brilliant experience.

Yeah, I agree.

Wow.

OK, so there's a plug for the descriptor that's done.

So more serious things, I guess.

Could you share with us your vision loss journey and maybe incorporate that into who you are and maybe how you got to be a writer and that kind of.

Yeah, from a young age, I was always short sighted.

I wore glasses, first of all.

But when I was I think I was maybe as young as seven, I started wearing contact lenses because there are these big, heavy glasses that I wore.

They were big, thick glasses.

And my mom used to say that, you know, I don't do a national health.

The UK is the National Health Service and they were the ones the most comfortable glasses.

I don't know if anybody remembers the wire framed ones with curly wire that went around your ear and really hurt my ears because there were heavy lenses.

And, you know, my mom used to say I used to hide them down the fields and, you know, I would always have to be getting new ones and everything.

I ended up wearing contact lenses and lenses for a good while.

But then when I was 11, I you know, people can hear from my accent.

I grew up just outside Belfast in the north of Ireland.

When I was 11, I.

Part of the situation that was there, I was beat up.

I lost the eyesight of my right eye straight away.

That was a detached retina.

But then for years, my left eye was fine.

And it didn't really bother me at all.

You know, I went to mainstream school.

Luckily, I did.

I learned to touch type of school.

Maybe there was a prediction of what might happen later on.

But when I was maybe early 20s, I left.

I started going.

I had a series of detached retina operations, maybe five or six operations.

And it slowly, gradually during my 20s and deteriorated more and more.

And such times that I had to start using the white stick when it did start going, my left eye, I was actually studying at art college in Belfast.

I was studying fine art as an artist, as a painter.

But my eyesight started getting to the point where I just couldn't do it anymore.

So I left.

I got a bit lost for a while.

Didn't know what I was going to do.

And I come up with this really, sort of, I thought, very sensible idea of transferring my understanding and experience as an artist into sound art.

Something that was tangible to me.

I no longer could see visually enough to paint or to draw or to do clay work.

I suppose I could have done clay work.

But I had this idea of going into sound art.

So I went to study sound engineering and that never really took off.

But, you know, again, went out into the wilderness, lost for a while and went to university, studied literature, history.

And my mum passed away.

She left a few pounds and it wasn't that much at all.

But I used it to do something really concrete.

And that's when I decided that when I was at university, I studied or discovered a penchant, a liking for writing and research.

And I thought, hmm, and I thought maybe I could move into journalism.

So I went and did a postgraduate qualification in journalism.

And rather naively, the first job that I applied for after completing that postgraduate qualification was at the BBC.

And weirdly, I got that job.

And I do, I do.

I still say, I think to this day, it was my mum.

My mother was there.

You're sort of guiding.

She was at my back.

She, as soon as she seen that it got settled with the first job, then that was it.

It was almost, I always knew you from the point that I decided that's what I was going to do.

I committed myself so much to it.

I've done lots of things in the past that if I look back on it now and look and ask myself honestly, I don't think I'd committed wholeheartedly to it.

But I think because of the.

The intrinsic value of being able to do it as a memory for my mother, I knew in my heart that it wasn't that I was 100% committed to that I was going to be successful at.

Your journey is very similar to my own.

When my mum passed away, it's so odd that you mentioned all this.

She made me promise that I would finally publish my my book, my poetry book.

And then, yeah, like I always and I was like, OK, I'll do that.

Right.

And then when we were going through her, her stuff, we're going through all of her items in her apartment.

We found her poetry that she never showed us.

And she wrote I there's two poems that since they were handwritten, my my sister in law, she transposed them for me and put them in word and sent them to me.

And that was just like, OK, I know where this writing thing came from.

I know where this compulsion or this connection to the written word and literature and art and all that stuff came from.

I didn't really fully understand it until then.

So that's a beautiful thing, you know, I think in the same vein, it's almost.

You know, it gives you an answer, but it also gives you something to aim towards.

No, you're not doing it for yourself.

You're somehow putting that goal.

And it is a goal, you're doing it for someone else.

So it makes it you almost.

You are non-selfish thing.

So you're doing it for what might be considered a right reason.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It just seems natural, right?

It's where you should be at, you know, and and then you can apply it to whatever you want in your life.

Right.

It gives you the freedom to do that.

I think that's that's I think what now that I think about what happened and how things were and, you know, all these little symbols and things that happened along the way after mom passed away.

Like, you know, gave me freedom to do what I wanted to do or what I was meant to do.

Like permission or, you know, I don't know.

I think age is a wonderful thing as well.

You know, I'm becoming a bit older.

I'm a bit more in the middle age now, whatever middle age is.

But I think that.

You know, I have heard it said that.

Use this wasted on the young anyways, it is.

It's true, isn't it?

Because you you become so much wiser and you can see things a lot clearer.

The older you get.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wisdom is hindsight is wisdom, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, interesting stuff.

So let's pivot a little and talk about your professional life and your work with BBC and Reuters.

And talk about your project that you mentioned to me.

Yeah.

What you currently do and what drives you to do that and that kind of stuff.

Well, when I started and again, this is when I started to BBC, I started as a business and economics journalist and I.

I was a huge surprise to me, first of all, that's where I ended up to a lot of friends and family who you could never envisage me as a business journalist.

You know, I'm rubbish with money.

I don't have a clue about cash flow.

You know, I live for today and I've always been like that.

And I am again naive.

But when I was a business and economics journalist and that's been primarily what I what I did at the BBC 17 years this year, I've been there.

And I think for 14 of them, I was a business and economics journalist.

But then.

I think, you know, I started understanding the direction of travel really for the news industry and journalism as a whole, and it was moving digital and it was moving away from that linear right of TV and radio, which is what I had mainly worked in.

I'd worked in all of our major network news programmes and on TV and radio.

I'd done a bit of digital online stuff, but an opportunity arose and I moved over into.

It was a brand new team that was part of a new structure and it was called Digital Special Projects.

And the beauty about moving into a new team, a brand new team that is virgin territory in a way, is that everybody was finding their feet, trying to figure out what this team was.

Your digital special projects.

I thought, well, that sounds that sounds fascinating.

That sounds intriguing.

So we're trying to figure out what this was and what the position was.

And when I moved into that, fortuitously, again, an opportunity arose for a fellowship at.

The Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism at the University of Oxford, prestigious, well-known across the university.

Yes.

And.

Again, you sometimes you get this feeling in your gut.

And I looked at this opportunity as part of the application process.

You had to pitch a project idea that was going to be a benefit to the news organisation where you work, but also to the journalism industry as a whole.

And it wasn't long, really, after the big main part of Covid, you know, there'd been lockdowns, there'd been tragic deaths.

And we were covering it a lot.

And a lot of other news organisations were talking about it.

But I started noticing with our digital content and digital content of other news organisations, and just the amount, the sheer vast, massive, huge amount of visual data journalism that was being produced that was conveying a lot of important messaging.

You know, the number of Covid deaths, for example, but then you're looking back really as my career as a business journalist, you a lot of charts and graphs and infographics were being used constantly for really important data, not just health data, but financial data and all stuff.

I got started.

I started, you know, as an industry.

We are relying a lot more on this visual data journalism, but we're not considering people like me who don't access information or what might be considered that traditional way.

I usually.

So I started researching it to see what other people were talking about.

There is and there was and there is some people working on this that have got a real understanding of the value of data visualisations and working on how to make them more accessible.

So I worked up a pitch anyway as part of my application process to the Reuters Fellowship.

And I was lucky enough to get through.

And as part of that, I was a cohort of 16 international journalists.

I was the only one from the UK and I was the first one in the whole history of the fellowship to be blind or have any sort of visual impairment.

But I went there and again, I think you're right.

I've always looked into things with a naivety and you know what?

It's funny when I look back now, you know, I appreciate just the enormity of that opportunity.

So since I did that, I was able to publish my paper.

It was so good to be able to go and sit in the Bodleian Library and the University of Oxford.

Oh, my goodness.

You know that I did and said, study and have access to all of the resources and the different people and experts.

So that paper was published.

And when I come back to the BBC, I wanted to do something with that research.

So I went presented to it's called the BBC News Board.

Give me a mandate to make the BBC the best mainstream digital news provider for blind and partially sighted audiences.

So that's something that I've been working on.

I said, I knew that the visual data journalism element was a tough nut to crack.

But before we got to that, there was a low hanging fruit of the alt text on all of the images that we were producing, even just photos and like images of text, screenshots of tweets or whatever.

Yeah, no thought was being given to how that visual information was being conveyed to screen reader users.

So that was low hanging fruit.

I created a really detailed guidance for all of our digital journalists.

And I was keen that what that just wasn't kept within the ivory tower of the BBC.

So it was published externally as well.

Anybody can find it online.

You can maybe share the link.

But it's excellent.

Other news orgs are using a night.

I started training all of our digital journalists and I think we're up to about maybe eight or nine hundred digital journalists that have been through the training that I've created as well.

So.

You know, it's it's again when I look at the BBC News website every day and see the quality of the alt text on images, you know, standard photos, but also those complex images, your charts and graphs and maps and infographics.

I think, yeah, that's a good job, you know.

But the weird thing is that.

You know, the audience for that is although it's big, it's quite minor in the scheme of things, senior leaders, senior journalistic figures don't really see that advancement that was made because they're obviously not screen reader users.

So but a lot of people who are screen reader users say to me all the time, oh, my goodness, look at that.

That is really good.

And you might know this only for years.

We were totally underserved with alt text and you just simply don't know what you don't know.

But it's only I think when things like Be My Eyes and Be My AI came out and we started using tools like that that we realised, oh, my goodness, look at that.

Look at that rich, vast description that is on our fingertips.

I know he looked like that or.

Wow.

This is, you know, yes, yes, absolutely.

And there's huge, huge cultural significant moments.

You know, I remember the image because I've got this visual library and a lot of people will have that visual library who have been able to see.

Right.

There were no iconic images.

Yeah.

Just off the top of my head, you know, Jim Morrison, you know, or right.

JFK, you know, when he was shot in the car or like like just the Coke logo.

Absolutely.

Coke logo look like if you've never seen the Coke.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

No.

What I know.

I know that visual library is very, very important for people to.

Yeah.

When I'm doing the training and training journalists, you know, a lot of questions will come at me.

She would describe colours.

Absolutely.

Yes.

She'd do even if you've never been able to see a colour as a sign or signifier.

But even more lately, when we talk about iconic images, do that picture of Donald Trump after the assassination attempt of Philadelphia.

You know, I looked across different news organisations.

Yeah.

See how they were treating that.

And a lot of people just were describing it as Donald Trump.

And you know, right.

Donald Trump, I don't understand or something.

But, you know, everybody will know.

No.

And if you can see that image forever, more will be seared into your conscience.

And we need to consider how we're going to offer that same equitable experience to people who don't see it visually.

But if you can really do a good, strong all text or text description of that, you then you're offering that equitable experience to everybody.

And that's what drives me to do stuff like that.

So I really want you could be considered a selfish act.

But, you know, I do want to have that equal and equitable experience that everybody else who can see it gets.

Yeah, so it's not selfish.

That's that's that's forward thinking.

That's paying it forward to the future, you know, and teaching people who are coming behind you or your colleagues to to make those considerations as no more afterthought to to make it as easy as everything else.

It's incredibly absolutely.

And, you know, it's been.

You know, it'd be wonderful if I had journalists coming through that I'm training now to hear the reaction to the people that are old, grizzled hacks to have been in the journalism industry for years.

I wish I had this training when I was younger.

This is the most practical and useful training I've ever had.

And, you know, I think as a storyteller, as a journalist, I love to take people on a journey.

So when I start the training, I start with sharing my screen, sharing my son with the screen reader and open up a story that maybe somebody in that day's training has written.

I look at the old text that they've done and say, look, this is what I get.

And let them listen to Joe speak.

This is what I know.

With that image that you have chosen and the girl.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They don't.

They're like, what is that?

What is that?

Yeah.

So they then.

Because.

I go through the training and I've got to know me and I'm a bit jokey about it and everything, then when they come to do their next piece and they're putting up an image and they're all Texas, they're like, oh, right, OK, right.

Let's do this, because I know now how a screen reader works, because a lot of people don't know how a screen reader works because we are as blind people, many busy peddling, paddling under the surface, under that waterline, you to try and exist in a world that's not designed for us.

But we don't want to show it about it.

We don't want to make a big deal.

I would try to make the world work for us.

So people don't who have never experienced a screen reader before.

Why would they know?

It's an abstract concept.

The new.

Theoretically, what all text is, but they don't understand the benefit of whether it's done well or the deficit when it's not done well.

Yeah, most people, they they say we they know we have things to help us, but that's about their extent of their knowledge about what we have to help us.

I like like if I have my air pods in and I'm looking down at my phone and but I'm listening to my phone.

But, you know, but I'm looking down at it like I would like a sighted person does.

You know, it's just like a natural thing you do when you have your phone.

They think I'm actually seeing my phone.

I know they don't know that I'm listening.

I know.

I know.

I think you would lose people's minds.

I was away with a whole group of friends for a big significant birthday not that long ago and we're in Budapest.

And one of my best friends, his brother in law was with us and he seen me just exactly as you describe.

I have my phone, I have my air pods and I need to look at me and he said, what are you doing there?

And I said, I'll just check on Facebook and he said, I'd like to do that.

You can't say and I said, oh, no, no, I'm listening to it.

And he goes, oh, I took care of it because I have my screen turned off.

You have to see it because it's not needed.

Oh, OK.

And you said, oh, OK.

And I let him listen to it because I understand what that's saying.

But then he afterwards, he says, oh, yeah, that's great.

Why are you looking at your phone now?

And I thought, you know what, that is a really good point.

It's just what you just said.

It's a habit maybe because we've been able to see or do you?

You know, I definitely do.

I look at my phone and I can't see it.

No.

And the people, people that can be just people because they don't understand, you know, it's funny.

But technology has done so much and opened the world up so much.

Yeah.

Even you're not smart speaker in the corner.

I won't say her name because she'll ask me what I want.

But yes, you know, you're not like you.

My audio player, my radio, my.

Yeah.

You know, sound system.

It's everything.

And technology has just given us so much.

And.

Do I think we have to remember what it might have been like, like, you know, 15, 20, 30 years ago for people who before this technology existed and massive, massive big up and kudos to the engineers and designers and businesses that have understood.

Joe, did the benefit of designing for everybody.

Yeah.

And who've recognized that the value to the monetary value of of designing for everybody, you know, because we are there and we're a big part of the market.

You know, we're consumers just like everyone else.

Absolutely.

You know, we deserve to have that.

I mean, let's let's face it.

We want to consume what everybody else wants to.

We want to be on social media.

We want to know what Donald Trump looks like, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, we want to understand the, you know, what everybody else is absorbing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so it's cultural significant touch points, isn't it?

Yes.

People are talking about things you want to be able to join in the conversation with your peers, with your family who are talking about it.

And go back to the Trump example.

Joe, you might not know.

But if you have a really good, strong, brilliant alt text of somebody who understands the value of why they're writing that alt text, then that's not equitability.

Yeah.

Interesting stuff.

I know personally that when I was in graduate school and I was starting to lose the ability to like even understand graphs and things like that, you know, it was really difficult for me to keep up with everybody.

And I just, you know, that that extra accommodation, you know, if I had had some kind of, you know, a digital, not even that, if I had some other way of accessing a graphing map or something, might have been a little bit easier for me.

Yeah.

Take a lot of the burden off me as a student, you know.

Everybody else took it for granted.

They just look at the page and they got it.

I couldn't do that.

I had to get somebody to blow it up for me.

And then I had to get somebody help me figure it out and, you know, track the graph.

And, you know, yeah.

Yeah.

I think that has evolved.

People's understanding of how people learn has evolved.

Universal design for learning is a big thing.

You even if you can see you, you might have different cognitive things that mean that you don't take in information in the same way as somebody else.

So you can't you.

I think we're becoming a society that does understand that people take in information and learn things in different ways and you can design accordingly.

But, you know, that takes awareness and exactly the same way as you need to have awareness of what all text is and why people are using a screen reader or how they're using it.

And it's all of those things.

You know, it's about awareness.

But.

Do we're rich tapestry of people, aren't we?

You're all doing different things, but for the same aims.

So are you are you the only visually impaired person, you know, in in your cohort or in your your group of of colleagues?

Are there other people with disabilities working?

You know, the BBC, yeah, there are the BBC is a really good employer.

I think it's.

You know, it is because of the unique funding model that we've got that it's.

The BBC license fee is a legal requirement for all households to pay, so.

I think because of that funding model, it is incumbent on the BBC as an organisation to be serving all audiences.

And the best way to serve all audiences is to employ people from different backgrounds and different demographics with different lived experiences who can feed into the decision making that the editorial or let that be creative decision making.

So I think there is a real innate understanding of the value of that.

And we're moving even more joy in that right direction.

So there are a lot of disabled people in and around the BBC, you know, and I know the mind as well as a journalist, being a journalist.

I'm also the co-chair of our disabled staff network.

But the BBC, which is we have got a whole set of different networks from people from different backgrounds and characteristics and lived experiences.

So for LGBT plus colleagues or black, Asian minority, ethnic colleagues or people from those socioeconomic backgrounds.

So.

And it's a real it's a real tool to try and push an understanding into an organisation that perhaps in the past could have been criticised for for being what we call male pale and stale.

Yeah, so, yeah.

Hey, Peter.

Hi.

I don't mean to interrupt, which I just did.

You did.

I'm really curious about your I find this really fascinating and I appreciate your sharing your experiences.

And I'm really curious to know what your take on AI artificial intelligence is going to play a role in journalism and specifically how you think it might impact the way people with disabilities are reported on or how it might change the way we experience things and sort of consuming journalism stuff.

Yeah, I was a brilliant question.

I think.

I was with anything.

I generated a I do the pros and cons.

There's massive opportunities, but there's huge threats that we need to be mindful of.

I have to talk, first of all, about the opportunities do that.

There are endless.

Do the possibilities that the technology could bring, especially for journalism, you at the moment for somebody, a journalist writing an alt text or a really complex image, a graph or an infographic.

Do you know that that's quite hard to do?

And you think on the face of it, describing an image.

It's pretty straightforward.

And that happens when I'm training all of the journalists to think at the start.

Yeah, well, it's pretty easy.

But then you're thinking, right, well, what are the important bits?

And with a complex image that is conveying really important information, health information or financial information, there's a real danger that a human leaves important bits out and generative AI and you use a probably experienced to use and be my eye.

But if you try that with a graph or something, it's really, really good.

It's really good.

And it gives you a detailed description of that.

So I think that's firstly a massive benefit, but that's only at the foothills of it.

Do you know the possibilities of multimodal considerations for different pieces you could have if you're deaf?

Capital D are hard of hearing in any way.

Do you know you could have a transcript done of a radio programme that is really, really good.

I've heard of newsrooms experimenting with changing a radio news report into a visual news report.

There's other news or experimenting with stuff for younger audiences.

There's a newsroom in South America, for example, that has used generative AI to change its main evening news bulletins into a graphic novel or into a graphic comic book offering.

Yeah, I've heard of that.

Yeah, pretty weird.

Yeah.

But for younger audiences who mightn't come and sit down for appointment TV to watch that late night news bulletin or mid evening news bulletin.

That's a fantastic way of getting them.

So I think in answer to your question, you know, those opportunities, it's huge and expansive.

We're just at the very start of what this is doing.

Your journalism newsrooms across the world are really trying to figure out the benefits.

Why is being mindful of those threats that I talked about?

The threats are for for people that are disabled.

Is that the societal biases are just exacerbated?

And that, you know, a large language model is only trained on the information that's there digitally.

That's on the Internet.

And that is a new shape or form, the complete understanding of human existence in history.

You know, it's from a very Western, North European, North American bias.

There's lots of stuff in what might be considered the global size of the global majority that isn't digitized.

That doesn't.

Therefore get integrated into what a large language model is using.

And there's been numerous experiments of.

You would say if you ask Chachi BT or other LLMs are available to to give you an image of a disabled person by and large, it'll be a wheelchair user, it'll be a white wheelchair user, and it'll be a white male wheelchair user.

You know, so that very narrow bias that exists in society, you will be exacerbated if disabled people aren't involved at the very, very start of this journey in the decision making that the likes of open AI and meta and Google are taken.

So the opportunities are huge, but the threats are as huge and it could double, triple, quadruple.

You know, that societal bias that we all know that really still does exist.

But I am very, very excited.

And I write about it a lot.

I've got a newsletter on LinkedIn and it's it's specifically about journalism and digital accessibility.

And every week there's more stuff about generative AI and the benefits of it, but also the threats.

And I guess as a journalist, you know, I've always had that impartiality thing, you know, in a balance.

You write, you have to.

You know, even if something looks brand new and shiny and beautiful and the best things in sliced bread, as a journalist, I'm always looking for that downside.

You're what is that?

What you are kind of and we should not be somebody that drinks the Kool-Aid about the benefits of generative AI without being totally mindful and aware of the downside.

But I think it's this is this is the industrial revolution.

This is the Internet over again.

This is you, the discovery of fire.

This is how important I think this technology is going to be to society and humanity.

So it's massively, massively important that not just disabled people, but people from all traditionally oppressed backgrounds are involved in it or would you.

It's just going to speed up the oppression that people have always historically had.

And I have one more sort of unrelated question.

It's a cultural question.

I actually worked for Reuters about 20 years ago.

I was the diversity person for Reuters North America journalism.

And one of the things I found fascinating about its culture is that these these were a bunch of the journalists that I worked with were very hard, hard driven.

They worked really, really, really hard.

They didn't like pie in the sky lingo.

They really wanted a quick explanation.

And I learned really quickly to speak in very practical terms about this whole diversity stuff.

And I'm curious to know if that's if that if my experience jives with yours and how you've sort of communicated within that culture.

Yeah, another great question.

I think as a journalist, you we all have heard of that term, the elevator pitch.

You get one shot at if you are in a lift and you see an editor of a program, you've got maybe 30 seconds to get what you think is the best story idea across them before they're going to ding and they're getting out the door.

So you're absolutely right in that you need to be able to convey a concept very quickly.

But I think I find that you got to convey it in a way that is going to be understandable to whoever it is that you're talking to.

So when I first started talking, as soon as I came back from my fellowship about accessibility and I was talking to senior leaders, I could tell that it was losing them.

Because for senior leaders who don't have that need or lived experience of accessibility for them, it's something that is over there.

That's not practicable to them.

It doesn't.

You know, it's nothing to do with them.

They do know theoretically why it should be done, but it doesn't really.

But the thing that they do care about is audiences and audience reach, and especially at a time where, you know, there's so much competition for eyeballs.

You pardon the pun, really pardon the use of that.

But so much competition from all quarters, you know, phone screens everywhere.

You know, your people's attention span supposedly is getting shorter.

We need to be reaching people in a way that they understand.

And for me, it is about audiences.

So when I flipped that around and instead of talking about accessibility, I started talking to them about.

Potential audience reach and the gains that they could get from being able to just pivot slightly and reach into the corners and other news orgs weren't perhaps reaching.

You then that's when the penny dropped and they understood.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

And then I was given a mandate to go on ahead and do it.

So I think it depends who you're talking to, Peter, you know, and what it is that they care about.

I think.

No, we should have moved on, but there is definitely a current climate and we all understand, you know, that diversity and inclusion initiatives are perhaps becoming under pressure.

But.

When you talk about it in cold, hard business terms or return on investment or something that is whoever it is you're talking to, you might be talking to somebody who works in finance.

Tell them why it's beneficial if you're talking to somebody in editorial, talk about audience reach.

And that's the way I find it.

They need to know if they're going to agree that there's something in it for them.

The other thing I found really interesting working with that with that audience is this was 20 years ago and the websites were far less accessible than they are now.

They're still not great, but they're better now than they were back then.

And what I would do is I take a journalist and sort of show him or her the problems I was having with something and they go, wait a minute, you may not be able to use it at all, but I have trouble using it, period.

So what they got from the experience and what I learned is, you know, what didn't work well for me.

Didn't work well for anybody else either.

And I just thought that was a fascinating thing that I hope journalists took as they sort of thought about these issues, you know, reported on stories like this.

Absolutely.

And that's a really good indicator of bad design.

You know, and it's not it shouldn't be for me.

It's not really about accessibility.

It's about the user experience.

It's about usability.

Yeah.

You know, and there are so many different websites that you come across.

You go, my goodness, this is terrible.

This is terrible.

And you think, oh, this is because this is not accessible.

But then when you talk to somebody who uses it, you know, and what might be considered a traditional way with a mouse and point it, it's a terrible experience for them as well.

You know, and that's down to bad user experience and user design.

And I think that's becoming something that's more known about, you know, you need to really understand that user journey.

I think physical stores and physical supermarkets or physical grocery stores or whatever have understood that for a lot longer than people in the digital world.

Oh, yes.

You know, we get people in and they know how to string them along.

I'm sure they're going to go to the other side in the register and their basket is full.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And we are being led by the nose.

We are being led by the nose.

The minute we go in, we we we can smell a beautiful bakery.

And that's not by accident that that's at the back of the store.

You have to walk past everything else.

You are on your way past.

You might say, oh, look, something that you didn't think that you wanted.

You know, when I go into to do supermarket shopping with my wife, I say she needs to put on a pair of blinkers, you know, and not be not be sort of taking everything.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

But I think the digital experience, it has been quite transactional, perhaps in the past.

But I think people are really starting to understand the value of really good design and keeping you in there and making sure that, you know, if it's a bad experience, you're going to go away.

Because if you can't do something on one website, there's going to be another website that you can do the same thing a lot easier.

And it's going to be a lot more enjoyable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I was shopping.

Yeah.

Well, I guess I have to quote hard dollars.

That's right.

If you can't find what you want on website a, you know, if you want to buy something, you know, like a clothing store online, if that clothing store is just horrible experience for you, you go to another clothing store online.

That's better.

That's more usable for you.

And that's where you stay.

I think that choice is becoming bigger as people understand the value of it.

And, you know, I'm a huge fan of Apple products.

And I think that's a loyalty that a lot of blind or visually impaired people do have because.

In the past, I remember having to pay extra money to get screen reading capabilities put on to a phone.

Yeah.

But then when that came along and it was built into the operating system and anybody could turn it on, you didn't have to pay any extra big bucks for it.

And that wasn't done out of.

Altruism, that was done as a cold, hard business decision because they understood that value of a consumer point.

Yeah, that's right.

Interesting stuff.

I don't think lots and lots and lots of pieces in the past about that, about the value of the so-called purple part of the purple dollar and why businesses need to pivot and use disabled models and their advertising campaigns.

And it's just it's just absolute sense when people see themselves and think, OK, yep, that is somewhere that I want to be and that's something that I want to invest in.

Yeah, it's all about identity.

Yeah, and I would imagine that artificial intelligence is going to totally revolutionize over the years how websites are designed or how they're how you do the research on the site.

I don't know what that's going to look like, but I suspect it's not going to be the way it is now.

Yeah, well, the possibilities are endless and I think it's just down to people's imagination and creative innovation.

You know, the race is it's just getting faster and faster and faster and faster and faster and faster.

So I remember when the first iteration of Chachi BT came was actually when I was at the Reuters fellowship, you know, and I was thinking, oh, you know, that was only two and a half years ago.

And you know, in my research, I didn't even touch in general because it was so new, it didn't even really exist, the opportunities and understanding of it weren't even there.

So we've come so far and it seems now that there's not a day that there's each of the big the big beasts involved in the release of a new version that can do so much more.

But that agents is something that's going to be.

Joe, invaluable and that you no matter how you input into your phone, your laptop, your computer, you're because you're us.

Being able to speak at your laptop and say, yep, can you go to such and such a website?

I want to book me a flight to there and then once I'm there, I need to have a car that will take me to their book me that hotel room at the minute.

You have to go to lots of different websites to do that and hope that they're all going to be accessible.

But at some point, you're using these chat agents or that will just be able to be done, you know, just by talking.

But then we'll have to be mindful of people who perhaps you have got a disability with their voice or can't speak and they use other modes of input.

Do all of these things need to be taken into account?

So nobody's left behind.

But the opportunities are huge.

Yeah.

Kind of makes me not want to talk about it because it's so overwhelming.

Well, I think for we artists, I mean, we are an advocacy organization for visually impaired artists of all descriptions, music and and writers and visual artists and whatever else, whatever other artists, graphic designers.

We need, you know, the whole issue of AI and how it's going to impact the way creativity takes place as a whole nother thing.

Yeah, it's already impacting us now because when I do blogging, you know, I do little bios and stuff like that on people.

I use perplexity.

All I have to do is ask it a question and it just takes off and answers my questions.

And it's unbelievable how it helps me and how it makes me get information faster and quicker and more accurately than I could do myself just by going on Google.

It's unbelievable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The quality of it is just wow.

You know, it's kind of scary.

I think there is something that we need to be aware of as well, apart from the bias that I talked about in the past.

I think there is a huge issue around copyright and ownership and how, you know, somebody who has produced a beautiful piece of art.

It can just be scraped by an LLM and butchered and utilised and amalgamated.

And then if it's made up of ten thousand different pieces from from ten thousand different artists, where does that copyright lie?

Does it lie with you who typed in the prompt or spoke the prompt?

Does it lie with the big tech organisation that owns the LLM?

Does it lie with the ten thousand of artists that have been butchered or their stuff taken and stolen?

Really?

You know, so there's lots of issues.

I was reading something yesterday that really blew my mind about music being generated by generative fire.

And there's so many different fake bands.

There was somebody who had put up music on Spotify.

I think maybe it wasn't Spotify, but it was some online music provider.

But then that we know that you may get like you may be a percentage of a percent or a penny each time you get a play of music.

And they had generated bots that will go in and get auto plays.

So they had generated tens and tens of thousands of dollars for themselves because of stuff that they had generated using generative fire.

That was music that didn't exist as a band and that had been obviously stolen from other artists that do exist.

Right.

You know, you just think, how is somebody being able to even conceive that scam and do it and put it into practice?

Yeah, that's yeah.

That's the consequences of the, you know, of the movie of moving forward.

That's the consequences of the progress you're making.

Yeah, it is.

It is.

Technology's always been something you write from the beginning.

You could be used for nefarious reasons.

And I think you will always have bad actors that are going to use technology in whatever way they want.

But I think at some point there will be a complete pushback, I think, in the same way that maybe you might have seen in the 60s when the space race was on and modernity was a big thing and clothing that was made of nylon or rayon became fashionable.

But then there's a pushback to your perhaps your more natural fibers and natural.

Right.

Right.

Are you in the heavy movement and everything you can see that.

But I think even, you know, there's something even more existential, possibly, and that we see that it is being used to manipulate truths on how important journalism is at a time of this when.

Joe, I can be used to disseminate missing this information at lightning speed.

Do what what really we could get to the point where.

You know, for example, if the race is so much for getting people to click into your journalism stories, then you could personalize what people want.

And then suddenly your news provider has become an echo chamber for what it is that you believe the world to be.

You know, in exactly the same way that we've seen the algorithm and social media feed people what it is that that algorithm thinks that they're into.

So it exacerbates their understanding of that echo chamber of what the world is.

And you could see the same thing happen to really good news websites if they were doing that, rid of using AI to personalize what people's news feed should be.

And that's dangerous.

This has been just fascinating conversation.

I'm so glad you came.

But I wanted to get to this last thing that I have on my list here.

The conversation about the phrase fabric and stone.

And I don't know why I have to ask you about this, but I just felt compelled to say, like, what does that mean to you in any context at all?

Whether it's in your life, your profession?

I mean, you did meant you did actually say that.

And I was just I was just intrigued by that.

I think if I remember right.

And I might be totally wrong, but I think it was a previous conversation that you and I had, I was maybe talking about writing or art or my desire for writing creative writing.

And I think, you know, I'm Irish and you were described as the land of saints and scholars.

And I think you're writing a story telling is in the fabric and stones of what it is to be Irish and what Ireland is to me.

It's probably the same for other people across the world from different different backgrounds and lived experiences.

But.

For me, certainly storytelling and the oral tradition of storytelling through songs, through writing, through literature, through poetry.

Do it there.

It exists in the landscape and it's there.

It's a serial after a blow in through the trees and it is you in the streams and rivers and brooks.

And you can you can hear the echoes of all of those stories that have been there through the ages.

And that for me is, you know, I think where I was going with that talking about that.

It's in it's just in the fabric and the stones of of Ireland.

That's beautiful.

I really is beautiful, inspirational, and maybe I'll get to hear that when I get to Ireland.

Twenty, twenty six.

That's right.

Yeah, well, definitely, definitely.

You have to just cut your rear cut your rear at a certain time of the day and you'll definitely hear that.

You'll hear it in the fabric and the stones.

But, you know, I think all Irish people that have been away from Ireland developed this romantic notion of what it is.

You know, I haven't lived in Ireland for 30 years.

Although I go back all the time, back two or three times a year.

But you're actually live there.

It hasn't been for a long time.

So I definitely have developed a romantic idea of what it is to be Irish.

But, you know, it is it's definitely always going to be there.

That's beautiful.

And that's that's part of the way it should be.

You know, we should have an attachment to where we came from and what it means to us and and how to express it.

Funny enough, I'm saying that I was born in Australia.

Yeah, I read that.

And I was like, oh, all right.

But you didn't stay there long, though, right?

No, no, no.

My mom and dad emigrated out there just at the start of the troubles, really.

And I think maybe 1969, 1970, when I was born.

And I don't think the state my mom was home, my mom was she was a country woman.

And I remember her telling me that when I was a baby, she brought me to the doctor and said, look, I don't know what's wrong with him.

He's burning up.

He's got a fever.

And the doctor says, you're from Ireland, aren't you?

Yeah.

And he says, and it's very cold there, isn't it?

And he says, well, it's thirty five degrees here.

So you can take some of those blankets off him and maybe he won't be as hot.

So she was doing exactly the same way.

She had seen everybody at home in Ireland swaddle and make sure that they had lots of blankets, not realising that thirty five degree heat was going to have a bit of a temperature.

So she did.

We moved back.

I think I was only maybe two when I moved back.

I'm very much Irish.

But when people find out that I was born in Australia, you know, it's not even Irish or born in Australia.

My response is always just because you're born in a stable doesn't make you a horse.

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

Oh, you have any final thoughts that you want to share?

No, not really.

I think I just want to say thank you to you and Peter for for inviting me to come along.

I think from the script of song getting to know you, you know, it's it's been it's been beautiful getting to know you.

I really do appreciate you invite me to come along to talk here today.

So I said to my wife that I've been asked to come and talk and she says, well, people want people want you to come along and talk about yourself.

I said, I know, I know.

Oh, my goodness.

Do you know what to let themselves in for?

Well, I'm glad you came.

And I know you had a lot to say about just a lot of different things.

We captured some of that here today.

Maybe we'll have you back to talk about more.

That would be wonderful.

Yeah.

And I'll keep in touch and I'll let you know when everything gets gets done.

And when this gets put out on on replay on ACB Media so that you can listen to yourself.

And you have your wife listen to.

Art Parlor is brought to you by Friends in Art and ACB Media.

It airs several times a week on ACB Media One.

To listen and for a full schedule, go to ACB Media dot org slash one.

Art Parlor is also available as a podcast.

Just search for Art Parlor in your favorite podcast app.

We'd love to hear from you.

You can email us at Art Parlor at Friends in Art dot org.

And please feel free to check out our website, www.Friends in Art dot org.

Thank you so much for listening and for your support.

We'll be back next month.

Izzi’s innovative and technical prowess has earned her recognition, and she has performed with renowned groups such as the John Daversa Big Band, Frost Jazz Orchestra, and Florida Wind Symphony Jazz Orchestra. Along the way, she has collaborated with jazz legends like John Daversa, Jazzmeia Horn, Brian Lynch, Etienne Charles, and Marcus Strickland, solidifying her place in the jazz world.

Listen as she recounts her journey, beginning with her childhood, and how her passion for art led her to explore music, which eventually expanded to include multiple brass instruments! You can learn more about Izzi and stay abrest of her career and social media by visiting her website: www.izziguzman.com.

On this edition, we're talking with author, Michael W Moran. He wrote his first book, a memoir titled "I did it Without Looking – a Blind Man's Recovery from Addiction". In his introduction, Michael writes, "I am blind and I'm an alcoholic." There was no cure for the glaucoma causing his blindness. Thanks to a twelve-step program and lots of help from others, he put down the drinks and drugs in 1982. Now, 42 years later, he's put together this heartfelt narrative of the main events of his life. Mike's friendly and open personality draws upon his world view. Listen and see for yourself how his refreshing message of hope and optimism will lighten your step.

This month, our guest is author and historian, Mark Carlson!

Mark Carlson is a witty writer, ravenous reader, historian, and author of nine books. He is a freelance writer and aviation historian. He is a member of several military, maritime, historical, and veteran organizations.

A contributing writer for over a dozen national magazines, his articles run the gamut of topics from aviation, military history, classic film and television, dogs, humor, and essays. He started by writing stories about his first Guide Dog, Musket, and later, about his work at the San Diego Air & Space Museum.

Carlson’s most recent project is preparing his next book for publication, When Yamamoto Ran Wild, the Pacific War from Pearl Harbor to Midway, to be released in the summer of 2024. He is currently writing the definitive account of the Lincoln Assassination, entitled Tyrannicide – The True Story of Booth and Lincoln. Carlson established FUNspeakable in 2009 and has given lectures for several local organizations, adult communities and schools.

NLS BARD catalog #75126; approximate reading time ten hours (2011). The book is also available from Amazon and Kindle: <https://tinyurl.com/yksvv7aa>

Come listen as Mark tells us about himself and his journey with writing, blindness, guide dogs, and beyond!

• pottery
• graphical art
• movement
• theater

shared their experiences presenting and working with curators to provide interactive and accessible connections to their work.

In this episode, we turn back a year... We bid you season's greetings as we bring back FIA member, Jason Castonguay, to talk about how he goes about arranging music. In this case, we're talking Christmas music. Yes, you, our listeners, will get to enjoy some hand-picked selections from Jason's Christmas album, as well as some other pieces recorded for an accessibility development fundraiser. Happy Holidays and enjoy the program!

In this edition of the Art Parlor, we visit an archive of the 2022 National ACB Conference and Convention. Held on June 23 of that year, our guest and FIA member, Derek Lane, along with attendees explore artificial intelligence, music, and pictures and how we, as blind people, can use these to our advantage.

Welcome to this edition of The Art Parlor where we shine a spotlight on an organization called I See Music and the gracious people there who will be helping us with our upcoming, in-person Showcase of the Performing Arts at this year's ACB national conference and convention! You'll hear from I See Music's owner, Byron Harden and two trainers who work with him - Derek Lane and Kevin Reeves, as they provide background on how I See Music got started. In addition, you'll gain an understanding of what services I See Music provides and some choices to consider when pursuing learning in the music and audio industry from a blindness perspective. Many thanks to Byron and his team for helping provide equipment for our showcase!

In this edition of Art Parlor, you'll ear an FIA presentation made in honor of FIA Past President, Lynn Hedl, at the 2022 ACB National Conference and Convention. You'll learn about the harp through presentations and performances by hosts Nancy Pendegraph and Jason Castonguay.

I think this paints a clear picture of teh varying topics that will be covered in this packed show! Enjoy your time in The Art Parlor!

George Ashiotis was born in London, England to Greek Cypriot parents. He came to the United States when he wasn't quite two years old and grew up in Astoria Queens, NY. When he was five, it was discovered that something was wrong with his vision. After many doctor's visits over many years and a surgery, he was diagnosed with Retinitis Pigmentosa. His vision gradually diminished until it became necessary to be admitted into a special class for students with low vision. At age thirteen, he started taking piano lessons at The Lighthouse on 59th St in Manhattan. At the age of eighteen, he started performing with The Lighthouse Players, a semi-professional theater company, and learned about the craft of acting and the accompanying nomenclature thereof. After high school, he worked many odd jobs and through connections he made with The Lighthouse Players, managed to get cast in a couple of off off broadway productions. Eventually, he enrolled in college, where he graduated summa cumlaude from Hunter College in English Literature Arts. In 1983, he met Ike Schambelan and together, they formed Theater by the Blind. George worked both on-stage, taking on a wide range of leading roles, and behind the scenes in an administrative capacity. Mr. Ashiotis has been featured in plays ranging from Shakespeare to Agatha Christie and a few original pieces written and produced by the company. He is a member of The Actors Equity Company and The Screen Actors Guild.

Art Parlor can be heard on ACB Media 1 Sundays at 8AM, Mondays at 12AM and 12PM, Tuesdays at 7AM, Wednesdays at 7PM, Thursdays at 4AM and 4PM, and Fridays at 3AM, 8AM, and 3PM (all times Eastern). Or ask your echo device to: Ask ACB Media to Play 1. You can also call 518-906-1820 at the times listed above.

Art Parlor is also available as a podcast! You can search for our podcast in your podcast app of choice, listen with your Amazon Echo devices by asking to play the Art Parlor podcast, or use your web browser to view the episodes. If you need the RSS link for your podcast app, it is:

Https://pinecast.com/feed/artparlor

Thank you for your support and enjoy the show!

In addition to this podcast, The Art Parlor can also be heard on ACB Media 1 Sundays at 8AM, Mondays at 12AM and 12PM, Tuesdays at 7AM, Wednesdays at 7PM, Thursdays at 4AM and 4PM, and Fridays at 3AM, 8AM, and 3PM (all times Eastern).

We continue Mikes story involving his early days with Friends in Art, talk a bit about the MIDI Mag list, some music technology, and his championing of a program for the blind at Berkley School of Music, among other things. You may particularly enjoy the sharing of memories that goes on in this episode.

Tune in and happy listening!

Art Parlor can be heard on ACB Media 1 Sundays at 8AM, Mondays at 12AM and 12PM, Tuesdays at 7AM, Wednesdays at 7PM, Thursdays at 4AM and 4PM, and Fridays at 3AM, 8AM, and 3PM (all times Eastern).

www.acbmedia.org/1

Or ask your echo device to: Ask ACB Media to Play 1. You can also call 518-906-1820 at the times listed above.

Art Parlor is also available as a podcast! You can search for our podcast in your podcast app of choice, listen with your Amazon Echo devices by asking to play the Art Parlor podcast, or use your web browser to view the episodes at

Https://artparlor.pinecast.co/

If you need the RSS link for your podcast app, it is:

Https://pinecast.com/feed/artparlor

Thank you for your support and enjoy the show!

It's a fun and packed show and we hope you enjoy it!

Art Parlor can be heard Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Mondays at 12AM and 12PM, Tuesdays at 7AM, Wednesdays at 7PM, Thursdays at 4AM and 4PM, and Fridays at 3AM, 8AM, and 3PM on ACB Media 1.

www.acbmedia.org/1

Or ask your echo device to: Ask ACB Media to Play 1. You can also call 518-906-1820.

Art Parlor is also available as a podcast! You can search for our podcast and this episode in your podcast app of choice, listen with your Amazon Echo devices by asking to play the Art Parlor podcast, or use your web browser to view the episodes at

Https://artparlor.pinecast.co/

If you need the RSS link for your podcast app, it is:

Https://pinecast.com/feed/artparlor

This was originally featured as one of the breakout sessions of the ACB 2021 annual Conference and Convention and we wanted to bring it to you, our listeners in the Art Parlor. Enjoy!

The Art Parlor is brought to you by Friends in Art – www.friendsinart.org. It can be heard Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Tuesdays at 7AM, and Wednesdays at 7PM on ACB Radio Mainstream. (Now, ACB Media 1)

www.acbmedia.org/1

Or ask your Echo device to open ACB Media. You can also call 518-906-1820 to listen via the phone.

Art Parlor is also available as a podcast! You can search for it in your podcast app of choice, listen with your Amazon Echo devices by asking to play the Art Parlor podcast, or use your web browser to view the episodes at

Https://artparlor.pinecast.co/

If you need the RSS link for your podcast app, it is:

Https://pinecast.com/feed/artparlor

Art Parlor can be heard Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Tuesdays at 7AM, and Wednesdays at 7PM on ACB Radio Mainstream.

www.acbradio.org/mainstream

Or ask your Echo device to open ACB Radio Mainstream. You can also call 518-906-1820 to listen via the phone.

Art Parlor is also available as a podcast! You can search for it in your podcast app of choice, listen with your Amazon Echo devices by asking to play the Art Parlor podcast, or use your web browser to view the episodes at

Https://artparlor.pinecast.co/

If you need the RSS link for your podcast app, it is:

Https://pinecast.com/feed/artparlor

Fitzville G. Martin aka Son of the Village is a well-known and respected Recording Engineer, Producer, Recording Artist and the Founder of Will Power Entertainment. You won’t want to miss this compelling and energetic conversation about his journey as an artist and his expert navigation of the hip hop culture.

How to listen: Art Parlor can be heard Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Tuesdays at 7AM, and Wednesdays at 7PM on ACB Radio Mainstream.

www.acbradio.org/mainstream

Or ask your Echo device to open ACB Radio Mainstream. You can also call 518-906-1820 to listen via the phone.

I also want to remind you that Art Parlor is now available as a podcast! You can search for it in your podcast app of choice, listen with your Amazon Echo devices by asking to play the Art Parlor podcast, or use your web browser to view the episodes at

Https://artparlor.pinecast.co/ The podcast will be uploaded around the time of the show’s first airing for the month.

Thank you and enjoy!

The FIA Art Parlor team

Art Parlor can be heard Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Tuesdays at 7AM, and Wednesdays at 7PM on ACB Radio Mainstream.

www.acbradio.org/mainstream

Or ask your Echo device to open ACB Radio Mainstream. You can also call 518-906-1820 to listen via the phone.

Thank you and enjoy!

Art Parlor can be heard Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Tuesdays at 7AM, and Wednesdays at 7PM on ACB Radio Mainstream.

www.acbradio.org/mainstream

Or ask your Echo device to open ACB Radio Mainstream. You can also call 518-906-1820.

Enjoy the program!

You can learn more about Joan by visiting her website: www.jewniquelymyself.com, or you can also find her books on Amazon.

Art Parlor can be heard Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Tuesdays at 7AM, and Wednesdays at 7PM on ACB Radio Mainstream.

www.acbradio.org/mainstream

Or ask your Echo device to open ACB Radio Mainstream. You can also call 518-906-1820.

I also want to remind you that Art Parlor is now available as a podcast! You can search for it in your podcast app of choice, listen with your Amazon Echo devices by asking to play the Art Parlor podcast, or use your web browser to view the episodes at

Https://artparlor.pinecast.co/

If you need the RSS link for your podcast app, it is:

Https://pinecast.com/feed/artparlor

The podcast will be uploaded around the time of the show’s first airing for the month.

A Very Happy New Year to all and enjoy the show!

To learn more about Peter and browse his website, go to:

Https://www.peteraltschul.com/

Art Parlor can be heard Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Tuesdays at 7AM, and Wednesdays at 7PM on ACB Radio Mainstream.

www.acbradio.org/mainstream

Or ask your Echo device to open ACB Radio Mainstream. You can also call 518-906-1820.

Happy Holidays, everyone and enjoy the show!

Wayne Pearcy is a New England area trumpeter and composer who has won numerous accolades, perhaps most known by the jazz community for placing second globally as a soloist at the ITG College Jazz Competition in 2011. His rich tone and lyrical playing style have earned him studies with some of the heavy hitters in Jazz, including Tiger Okoshi, Darren Barrett, and Wynton Marsalis.

Isn’t that amazing? And it doesn’t stop there. Enjoy the show and stay tuned at the end for his demonstration of the natural trumpet. Art Parlor airs tonight at 8PM on ACB Radio Mainstream and repeats Sunday at 8AM, Tuesday at 7AM, and Wednesday at 7PM.

http://www.acbradio.org/mainstream

Or ask your favorite digital assistant to play ACB Radio Mainstream.

Art Parlor will be available in podcast form within the next few days so that you can hear episodes on demand. Stay tuned for that info when it comes out!

Thank you for listening and for your support of Friends in Art.

I can go on, but the show does that beautifully and I hope you enjoy it as much as those of us on the panel did. It airs on ACB Radio Mainstream beginning Sunday morning at 8AM, Tuesday at 7AM, Wednesday at 7PM, and Saturday at 8PM and will continue throughout the month. You can also listen at these times by telephone. Call (518) 906-1820 and select option 1 for Mainstream. For a full schedule, visit www.acbradio.org/mainstream .

You can learn more about Friends in Art at our website: www.friendsinart.com .

Enjoy your time in The Art Parlor!

My story begins in The Village of Wurtemburg, located in rural western Pennsylvania. I was born on August 27, 1943. I am “Friday’s Child” and born under the Blueberry Moon. My destiny was to be an artist and writer. The images of my art and stories and poems are nestled deeply inside of me. I unearth them in the solitude of my studio.

If that doesn’t give an indication of how enticing this edition of Art Parlor will be, I don’t know what else would!

Please, tune into ArtFelt to listen to Lynda’s story. It airs tonight on ACB Radio Mainstream at 7PM and it will replay throughout the month at this time, as well as 8PM Saturday, 8AM Sunday, and 7AM Tuesday.

To see the full schedule of programming on Mainstream, go to www.acbradio.org/mainstream

To learn more about Friends in Art, visit www.friendsinart.com .

Thank you and enjoy!

Some websites are listed in the show. His website is

http://www.legofortheblind.com/

Some other links he provided are:

His music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KxhdW7HHxA

His Ted Talk: https://youtu.be/Ls6JdUdogLQ

Art Parlor is brought to you by Friends in Art and ACB Radio. It airs beginning every Saturday evening at 8PM on ACB Radio Mainstream, repeating various times throughout the week. To listen and for a full schedule, go to

http://www.acbradio.org/mainstream

And please visit www.friendsinart.com to learn more about us. Enjoy the show!

Https://lynnhedl.weebly.com/

Art Parlor can be heard every Saturday at 8PM, Sunday at 8AM, Tuesday at 7AM and Wednesday at 7PM. You can listen on ACB Radio Mainstream, use the ACB Link app for Android or iOS, or call (518) 906-1820. For more information on Friends in Art, go to

www.friendsinart.com

To send us comments or feedback, e-mail artparlor@acbradio.org .

Thank you for listening.

Friends in Art presents: The Art Parlor! Welcome to our premier featuring FIA member, poet, and author, Ann Chiappetta. She shares her thoughts on creativity and independent publishing.

The Art Parlor airs on ACB Radio Mainstream every week, beginning Saturdays at 8PM, Sundays at 8AM, Tuesdays at 7AM, and Wednesdays at 7PM. For a full Mainstream schedule, go to http://www.acbradio.org/mainstream.

Friends In Art is a special interest affiliate of the American Council of the Blind. For more information go to www.friendsinart.com or www.acb.org